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FAQ # 209
QUESTION 209 : Did “John chapter one speak
of Jesus as being merely an idea in God’s mind that came into being at
the incarnation; Jesus was just a plan in the mind of God before the incarnation”?
(bible.ca)
Since the lamb was slain from the foundation of the
world (Rev 13:8) yet it wasn't really slain until Jesus crucifixion, doesn’t
that make this an idea of God that he had plan to execute since creation?
And though he plans to execute it and being not confined to time, it doesn’t
make it less real when it happened. For instance, building a sand castle
for the purpose of jumping on it. You already have a full idea of how
it will feel, that’s why you built it in the first place, but that doesn’t
make it less fulfilling when it happens. The same thing can be said of
man. For instance, he said to Jeremiah, “before I form thee in the belly
I know thee” (Jer 1:5). Doesn’t that make this an idea of God that he
had plan to execute?
Mr. Oppenheimer later said,
“In John 1:3 it states "all
things were made by him." The word dia means through
him. That he was not the agent of causation but the instrument through
which it was done. That there was another involved as in Heb 1:2 says
"by whom he made the worlds". The Bible calls the word a he,
a him not a plan not a thought, not a speech pattern, he is a person
who was existent at the same time as the other.”
The scripture also said that he made the world by wisdom
(Jer 10:12), are we to now think
wisdom is a separate person, especially when in proverbs it is spoken
of “like” a person (Prov 1:20) - personification.
NO. The language used is similar to personification, giving animate qualities
to seemingly inanimate things. This is done because the word is not just
an “impersonal idea, conveying the thoughts of
God," it is the core or heart of God, it is the same God the father,
that’s why the word is referred to as HE. Very much like you are your
words, that’s the reason the scripture tells us that out of the abundance
of the heart a man speaketh (Luke 6:45). In other words, your word comes
from you and is you, not a separate person. That’s why you’ll be judged
by your words. If your words were someone else you couldn’t be judged
by it but it alone would be condemned. That’s pretty much the same thing
with the Word (so called Logos) and God. He had the idea to come as man,
and spoke it; likewise, he had the idea to make man and did it. Similarly,
man had the idea to go to outerspace, in a space suit, and spoke it. But
first they conjured the idea to send an animal to outerspace, in a space
suit, and did it.
The said person from bible.ca later said,
“After me comes a Man who has a
higher rank than I, for He existed before me." Jn 1:29. John was
6 months older than Jesus in the flesh. In fact Jn 1:29 throws Modalism
into a tail spin because THE MAN Jesus did not exist before John, except
in the mind of God.”
The flesh of Jesus was created first in Mary, the spirit
of Jesus is God himself and existed before John and all beings. In another
sense, we can also exist in the mind of God before being born which is
usually the case, because remember that he said to Jeremiah, “Before I
formed thee in the belly I knew thee” (Jer 1:5).
How could God know Jeremiah, THE MAN, before he was born? You see
that many are fiddling arrogantly with mysteries that can be easily unraveled
by God alone (1 Cor 12:3) if you come to him humbly and put aside
all things.
Then the said person again refuted,
“So Modalists must say that what
John meant by, "the Man Jesus existed before me" is that Jesus
existed in the mind of God longer/before John the Baptist. In other words,
first God thought up the Son, then He thought up John the Baptist.”
We are the ones subject to time, we are the ones created
and we are the ones who by ourselves cannot understand God ways (Isa 55:8). When God rested on the seventh day from
all his works it was also signifying that he finished set everything in
motion. In other words, all things were created before it happened. Much
like an artist thinks of his next piece, gets out the brushes, paint and
other tools. Some touches come before another and thus appear before another,
but all were in the mind before it appeared on paper. So it is with God
who exist out of time; and it is quickly going by, but to us it is not.
So when we are here preaching the gospel, Christ is years ahead dividing
the mansions between the believers, the ones he said he’s building for
us (John 14:2). So to God everything was already set in his mind, who
to do what and who to follow and so on. Logics will not tell you that,
but faith in the Bible will, that’s why it said, “That which hath been
is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that
which is past” (Ecc 3:15). Nevertheless,
our words fail us in explaining these mysteries and thus left for God
to reveal it to whom call on him for it (Jer 3:33).
In another sense, in relentless pursuit of error, Mr.
Mike Oppenheimer said,
“For the word to be interpreted
as something God spoke would mean that God is not an eternal personal
being” (Mike Oppenheimer, Who is Jesus?).
Just because God spoke something
later (“created”) from himself meant that what he spoke made him not eternal;
since what he spoke was him (God) and "created." How ludicrous
can someone else sound. What limits we are placing on God with our carnal
understanding. We just don’t get it, do we.
“The Logos [word] is God uttering
himself” (John Miller , Is God a trinity, p.85). Uttering what? Uttering
the same eternal essence he is, uncreated. It is his thought and “the
expression of the thought (word) is eternal, since he who thinks is eternal.”
You see that no matter how it is put you can’t separate God from the word,
similarly, you can’t separate me from my words.
Mr. Oppenheimer continues,
“He is called the word because
he is the active cause of the world, it is he whose word brought
Again, utter foolishness, because
he can't seem to not think and give the word some other identity, other
than the father himself.
God operates based on his word,
as his word is spoken so it is; and as you can’t separate a man from his
word or thoughts, so you can’t separate God from what he has spoken or
thought, so to speak. Hence,
“In the beginning was the word [God], and the word was with
God [not two separate persons, just like man and his thought],
and the word was God [clarifies that they are not two persons, for
only one can be God] .... and the word became flesh [the same eternal
God walked as man, as he had planned to do from the foundation of the
world, in redeeming man]" (John 1).
And to prove that the Word wasn’t a separate person
from God himself but resonate the faculty of speech, one psalms read,
“By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them
by the breath of his mouth” (Ps 33:6); the word is the spoken
idea of God. For instance, "Let there be light [word spoken]: and
there was light" (Gen 1:3). So when a type of personality is given
to the word in the New Testament (Col. 1:16-17) it is for metaphorical
or analogical reasons.
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