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Marilyn MansonaBBS > Marilyn Manson > To all the openminded I say welcome. The great theology thread has returned!
Author Message
Rictus
Member
3203 Posts
Member since:
06-05-2000
To all the openminded I say welcome. The great theology thread has returned!
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This is the place. Welcome Freegrace, Order, Adolph et all. Freegrace, I owe you a responce re:the law of non-contradiction and the nature of inclusive truth. Watch this space.
"All the drugs in this world
Won't save her from herself..."
"Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love)
posted 01-12-200106:41 AM Ê Ê
Rictus
Member
3203 Posts
Member since:
06-05-2000
@Freegrace.
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I hope you get this.
I said that my truth was inclusive. You asked how an inclusive truth can be possible under the law of non-contridiction. So at last, after much meandering, we come to the nature of truth, and I end up sounding like a post modernist, which is frankly depressing. But I digress.
The point I was trying to make was this. The reason my spiritual truth is inclusive is because I accept that it is true for me, and yet I also accept that it will not work for others, that they must find their own paths. For me, Jesus is not thew only route to heaven. Jesus is if you like to me a good example of one mans journey to spiritual awakening, to understanding of his place in the world. Marilyn Manson embraces the story of Christ as a revoloutionary, who was destroyed by his own ideals and the hypocracy and evil of his contemperies. This is a valid lesson to take. I've refered before to the risk of shining to brightly in a society that is dark. If you desplay openly strength of belief, unconditional love, you run the risk of being made a martyr. Two things cause this. One is the fear of the ruleing order, which needs the status quo to servive and thrive, and fears otherness. To these people, someone desplaying the strength of individuality is a threat because others may rally to the lesson, realising that they do not need leaders.
The other cause is the people who follow. They turn the figure of individuality into anouther leader, someone to follow, thus entirely missing the point of the lessons. They worship and idolise the person, taking his words as gosbel, and mindlessly attempt to modal their lives on this person. Ever seen the life of Brian? Think of the moment were the assembaled multitude say in one voice "Yes, we are all individuals.". That's what I'm talking about.
The point I'm trying to make here is that spiritual truth is subjective. I know my beliefs concerning reincarnation to be true. I have had personal experiences, past life flashbacks concerning periods of history I knew nothing about, that never the less proved to be accurate. But that's besides the point. Just as you, sensibly, have repeatedly stated you are not trying to 'prove' Christianinty, just advocate, so it is with me. I'm not telling anyone here to believe as I do. I fully accept that all my 'evidence' to support my beliefs is personal and to a large part subjective. It 'feels' right to me, the way Christianity 'feels' right to you. Sure we can both articulate why that is. You can talk of the need for salvation, man's inherent evil, the need for a savoiur, the hole in the soul that can only be filled with God's love. I can talk about ultimate responsibility lying with the individual, about the nature of life being cyclical, about eternal love and being true to yourself. Both arguments are valid as far as they go, both show an understanding of the human condition, both strive for a better tomorow for people, both care, both love.a
Yet you say they cannot both be true. I say they can. An example being the bible, for you literal truth, for me metaphorical truth. We could both be right.
I'll illustrate what I mean with a story by Niel Gaimen. In the books of magic (a graphic novel) our young hero, called Timothy, is deciding wether or not to be a magician. He is taken to Faire land by one of his potential teachers. On the journey, they have to cross a river of blood, and Tim almost drowns. On the far bank, panting and breathless, he asks his traveling companion why the river was there.
"Well" She says, drying herself off "maybe it's al a projection. Some say the river represents the voilence inherrent within us all, our capacity for harm, and crossing it sybolises our mastery of our own bloodlust. Or maybe the river of blood is like a reberth, a representation of the blood of the womb from which we all spring. Maybe our bodys are lying on the hillside whilst our minds travel this path, creating what we need to face."
Then she turns to look Tim in the eyes. "Or maybe it's just because this is Farie, and in Farie there's a river of blood."
Is any one point of view there expressed more valid?
Catch you later friend. I hope you are well.
"All the drugs in this world
Won't save her from herself..."
"Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love)
posted 01-12-200107:26 AM Ê Ê
Rosa_McGee
Member
841 Posts
Member since:
08-16-2000
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*applauds*
posted 01-12-200104:18 PM Ê Ê
Rictus
Member
3203 Posts
Member since:
06-05-2000
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Hi Rosa. I'm glad you liked it. How are you doing?
"All the drugs in this world
Won't save her from herself..."
"Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love)
posted 01-13-200104:33 AM Ê Ê
freegrace
Member
945 Posts
Member since:
10-31-2000
I'm glad to see this is resurrected again.
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For anyone who was not aware of the previous thread, here it is:
http://marilynmansonbbs.artistdirect.com/1b/OpenTopic?q=Y&a=tpc&s=10019&f=102194673&m=839191773
I now have a good understanding of your definition of inclusive truth and I am sorry to have characterized you as a post-modernist. Hopefully some time this week I'll be able to address the other thoughts you presented on the previous thread...freegrace
God is crazy about you.
If God had a refrigerator, your picture would be on it. If He had a wallet, your photo would be in it. He sends you flowers every spring. He sends you a sunrise every morning.
Whenever you want to talk, He listens. He can live anywhere in the universe, yet He chooses your heart. Face it, friend-He is crazy about you!
posted 01-13-200109:18 AM Ê Ê
Rictus
Member
3203 Posts
Member since:
06-05-2000
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Freegrace: Thankyou for the link, I'm so happy you found this! I look forward to reading your response as and when it's convinient, and as ever appreciate your time in reading this. Well met again friend.
Rictus.
"All the drugs in this world
Won't save her from herself..."
"Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love)
posted 01-13-200106:20 PM Ê Ê
freegrace
Member
945 Posts
Member since:
10-31-2000
No problem buddy
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I also forgot to acknowledge how glad I was to see that Rosa_Mcgee stopped by. Hi Veronique. It is always so nice to see her.
Rictus, I will do my best to say something meaningful this week. I really enjoyed our previous discussion...freegrace
God is crazy about you.
If God had a refrigerator, your picture would be on it. If He had a wallet, your photo would be in it. He sends you flowers every spring. He sends you a sunrise every morning.
Whenever you want to talk, He listens. He can live anywhere in the universe, yet He chooses your heart. Face it, friend-He is crazy about you!
posted 01-15-200101:03 PM Ê Ê
devilmunchkin
Member
3003 Posts
Member since:
08-19-2000
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HEY!! I haven't heard form you in ages!! i posted on my old thread, but then Mr. no one deleted them all to start over n stuff....
THROUGH ME YOU GO INTO PAIN THAT IS ETERNAL,
THROUGH ME YOU GO AMONG PEOPLE LOST.
JUSTICE MOVED MY EXALTED CREATOR:
THE DIVINE POWER MADE ME,
THE SUPREME WISDOM AND THE PRIMA LOVE.
BEFORE ME ALL CREATED THINGS WERE ETERNAL,
AND ETERNAL WILL LAST.
ABANDON EVERY HOPE YOU WHO ENTER HERE.
Dante's Inferno, Canto III
posted 01-15-200101:09 PM Ê Ê
Plastic Jesus
Member
2733 Posts
Member since:
06-19-2000
since you started a new topic...
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It's easier for me to join back in. I know you're not gonna start from scratch again but I'm afraid I have to. There's just too much to read in the other posts.
First of all, I want to say some things about myself. Now, I haven't really thought what to say yet so this might be quite an imperfect description of me and my beliefs. But I believe and hope they'll come out by themselves when we get deeper to this.
Well, I'm somewhere between an atheist and an agnostic. I don't know if there's a god but I doubt it and therefore I see no reason why I should believe in him/her/it. I'm for the old chliche about being your own god. I want to make my own rules and I dont want nor need a god or any other higher force to quide me. In personal life I try to take everything out of this life 'cause I believe this is the only one we have and while I'm at it I try to help other people as well.
Now I'm sure you have all heard that story before so let's just get started.
Here I have some basic questions for freegrace. And remember, I'm not here to judge nor to mock your belief. But I do want to question it, simply because I think everything should be questioned. And I really want to discuss this since I find Christianity very intresting. Thought from different basis than you.
Let's start:
Do you think that an atheist/agnostic, like me, is "lost" or "blind"? (this accusation gets thrown around by both parties alot)
Do you think that some of the "rules" of Christianity go against man's nature? If so, do you think it's acceptable or even good?
Do you belive God "wrote" the Bible? If so, how can you explain all the paradoxes and mistakes in it?
I'm sorry, those questions might seem a bit agressive but you have to understand me since I'm not Christian and frankly I find most things about it rather disturbing. but let's not bad-mouth anyone.
Please anwer those questions, more will be coming. I'm just so excited cause I dont often have a chance to talk with a Christian, more than two minutes anyway.
And feel free to ask me questions, too.
----------------------
"Don't make your kids stupid!" -Jello Biafra
The Plastic Jesus Cult
plastic.jesus@antisocial.com
posted 01-15-200101:24 PM Ê Ê
freegrace
Member
945 Posts
Member since:
10-31-2000
Plastic Jesus and Devilmunchkin
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So good to hear from you both. Devilmunchkin! I've so missed talking to you! I saw that our previous thread got eliminated. We can always talk here or start a new one. Plus, you have my email. We can also talk via email. How's your life treating you? How's Nihilist Zero?
Plastic Jesus. What does your name mean? I would be more than happy to answer your questions. I am going to try to respond to you and Rictus this week. Hopefully I'll get to do it at some point today. My whole purpose here is to give people the opportunity to ask questions. I can't stand it when parents say stuff like, "Don't ask questions like that, etc." If I don't know the answer, I will say that and try my best to research it.
What specific contradictions are you speaking of? I will probably elaborate later but on first glance (without carefully constructing an answer to all your questions) I would say that I do believe that the Bible is the Word of God. I believe it is the most consistent and comprehensive description of man. It accurately describes origin, the current state of man, what is required to overcome that state and the afterlife. I also believe that the Bible is the closest approximation to the tests for truth set up by most philosophers: Ockham's Razor, Correspondence to Reality, Internal Coherance and Experiential Relevance. I also believe that the Bible was inerrant in the original autographa. What I mean by that is that as it was originally written it was without error. However, keep in mind that our English translations often do not translate it as accurately and the original manuscripts of the Old Testament are no longer available. Hebrew is especially difficult to translate because all of the letters ran together. Some supposed numerical errors can easily be attributed to scribal error in copying the numbers since the scribe had to do it all by hand (without the convenience of spell check I might add).
As for the unbelieving world, I do not believe that Christians are better people or more wise by their nature than the unbelieving world. I have been accused in the past of elitism which I reject. I have freely admitted that Christianity is not illogical, but it does require faith. However, I equally believe that any system requires faith, including science.
When the Bible speaks of a person being lost, I do not think it is talking of someone being a complete idiot. I prefer to think of it as a boy who has run away from his father in the mall and can't find him. It's not that the boy is stupid, but he just doesn't know where to look. The Bible is the set of directions for children who are looking for their father and cannot find him. The wisdom of Christianity isn't necessarily as the world sees wisdom, but it is a spiritual insight into how our Father is. To illustrate, I may know everything about Bill Clinton from hearing about him, but that doesn't mean I know him as a person. The true wisdom of Christianity is that it allows humans to have a relationship with their father.
As for the issue of your views, I welcome them. I think that the vast majority of people are in your situation. In essence, I think that oftentimes the world creates a God that suits their preference rather than trying to determine who he really is. The reason is that they would rather change God than change themselves. This is what I think the Bible calls spiritual blindness. It is not necessarily being an idiot but blinding oneself from taking God as He is in order to make Him how we want Him to be. I don't mean this to offend you but to answer your question.
Hopefully, this is a good introduction to what I think about what you said. It is by no means a well thought answer, so I might have to clarify some of it later.
Welcome to the thread...freegrace
God is crazy about you.
If God had a refrigerator, your picture would be on it. If He had a wallet, your photo would be in it. He sends you flowers every spring. He sends you a sunrise every morning.
Whenever you want to talk, He listens. He can live anywhere in the universe, yet He chooses your heart. Face it, friend-He is crazy about you!
posted 01-15-200101:57 PM Ê Ê
Morphea
Member
161 Posts
Member since:
12-17-2000
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Rictus I love your post about inclusive truth as it is incredibly well written and I very much tend to believe to each ones own about their belief systems, so long as they are not trying control my life in any way and let me be as I choose. However I also think that Plastic Jesus has some valid points in his question that really do need to be adressed.
posted 01-15-200102:00 PM Ê Ê
freegrace
Member
945 Posts
Member since:
10-31-2000
Welcome Morphea
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One other thing I forgot to mention Plastic Jesus:
Yes, I think that some of the rules of Christianity go against the sinful nature of man. I raised this to Rictus a while back. Does my nature prefer to have sex with other women, even if I am married (I'm not married but I am saying this as an example). The answer is definitively yes. Does my nature actually love my enemy? Not at all, I'd prefer to hate my enemy.
HOWEVER, the teachings of Christianity actually lead a man to a life that is ultimately for his best interest. By subscribing to my natural desire to cheat on my wife, I would actually bring grave hurt to her. By hating my enemies, I will only grow more bitter and do something that may hurt them. The miracle of Christianity is that when one depends on God to help him do those things that he could not do on his own, then it is possible. As I have said before, God helped me a great deal in conquering my alcoholism when I never could have done it on my own.
Morphea, was that the question I missed? If not, then let me know what it is and I'll try to clarify my response...freegrace
God is crazy about you.
If God had a refrigerator, your picture would be on it. If He had a wallet, your photo would be in it. He sends you flowers every spring. He sends you a sunrise every morning.
Whenever you want to talk, He listens. He can live anywhere in the universe, yet He chooses your heart. Face it, friend-He is crazy about you!
posted 01-15-200102:16 PM Ê Ê
freegrace
Member
945 Posts
Member since:
10-31-2000
I'll talk to you all later
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I've got some errands to do. Rictus, hopefully, I'll get to your points later on tonight...freegrace
God is crazy about you.
If God had a refrigerator, your picture would be on it. If He had a wallet, your photo would be in it. He sends you flowers every spring. He sends you a sunrise every morning.
Whenever you want to talk, He listens. He can live anywhere in the universe, yet He chooses your heart. Face it, friend-He is crazy about you!
posted 01-15-200102:27 PM Ê Ê
Rosa_McGee
Member
841 Posts
Member since:
08-16-2000
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quote:
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I think that the vast majority of people are in your situation. In essence, I think that oftentimes the world creates a God that suits their preference rather than trying to determine who he really is. The reason is that they would rather change God than change themselves. This is what I think the Bible calls spiritual blindness. It is not necessarily being an idiot but blinding oneself from taking God as He is in order to make Him how we want Him to be.
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i think i've posted something like this sometime before.... but i still think that while i hold this to be true in essence, in my opinion it includes the christian god of the bible, too....no one's given me a convincing argument yet why there should be any exeption here...
this needn't be bad in itself though, i think - certainly every religion reflects, mabe even focuses the dark sides of every society, but every religion at least to some people has always been a means of thought, insight, development, goodness - because the god we create always is an ideal we want to emulate - a warped ideal certainly in some cases, but for good people one that pushes their capacities further to their limits
but does this ideal have to be called god ? i think it's a means & not the end.... the end maybe should be self knowledge....
but anyway, i stopped posting on the other thread because i'd come to the conclusion that we've reached a point where our opinions were simply too far apart, my own too set, too, probably... i wasn't discussinng anymore, rather fighting....
i don't want to offend anybody, but that's just my opinion, more dispassionatly this time, i hope...
[This message was edited by Rosa_McGee on 01-15-2001 at 03:13 PM.]
posted 01-15-200103:05 PM Ê Ê
Mike Sorrow
Member
2179 Posts
Member since:
10-08-2000
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Freegrace, hello. I have a question. You said:
quote:
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As for the unbelieving world, I do not believe that Christians are better people or more wise by their nature than the unbelieving world. I have been accused in the past of elitism which I reject. I have freely admitted that Christianity is not illogical, but it does require faith. However, I equally believe that any system requires faith, including science.
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With the first part, you mention that you don't feel that Christians are better people. Then, how can you agree with passages in the Bible that say that those who reject Christ as their Lord and saviour will suffer eternal damnation. If they are not worse people, why then do they deserve this fate?
Also, as for faith. I am, as you know, a believer of the scientific theories. I absolutely agree on your ideas that any system, including science, requires faith. I disagree that science requires an amount of faith equal to religion.
For example, the skeletons and fossils that gain and lose attributes as time goes on provide more evidence towards evolution than a book that details the creation of man does toward creationism. The fossils provide concrete evidence while the book does not. Therefore, when looking for a system of beliefs, it can be expected that the logical approach is to take the route with the most facts and least amount of faith required. Otherwise, it would be like saying that an equal amount of faith is required to believe there is a purple hippo outside my window then there is to believe that I will pass my next English exam in school. That is why I say that, not only Christianity, but all religions are not illogical, but less logical.
I'm always interested in your responses.
- Mike Sorrow -
posted 01-15-200103:43 PM Ê Ê
Rictus
Member
3203 Posts
Member since:
06-05-2000
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I'm really stoked! Welcome all, old hands and newcomers. I hope you all gain insight from this. One point I made in the last thread was this: The better we understand each other, the harder it is to hate and condemn. I have gained so much insight in this thread, thanks to Rosa, Freegrace and the other participents, and I thank you all for taking the time to participate. Your views and questions are always welcome and valued.
Devilmunchkin: Welcome! Feel free to continue your discutions with Freegrace here, if you are comfortable with that. I would certainly wish you to stick around, I look forward to your input. I think you have so much to bring to this discussion. Welcome.
Plastic Jesus: Go on, explain your name to freegrace, I think he might dig it! I'm glad you are here, I know you have some great ideas. I liked your defence of leftism in Loki's thread BTW. Very articulate. Also saved me some effort!
Morphia: Welcome, and thankyou. I had been thinking on that one a while, so I'm glad I managed to get it ouit intact. As the others will tell you, I'm not often that coherent, as I tend to get sidetracked!!! But I'm glad you dug it. Welcome to the thread, and stick around.
Rosa: Good to see you again. I hope you are well, and it's great to read your thoughts again. Your education does you credit, as your writing often has a focus and structure I can but envy!
I'm glad you want to contribute.
Freegrace: Ah, no good deed goes unpunished!! Still, I'm real glad you have stuck around. 545 posts!!!
Not bad, preacher, not bad at all. as ever, I egarly await your further contribution.
Well met all. Let's raise holy sparks!
Rictus.
"All the drugs in this world
Won't save her from herself..."
"Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love)
posted 01-15-200103:45 PM Ê Ê
devilmunchkin
Member
3003 Posts
Member since:
08-19-2000
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What I've always wondered is how all the rules and hate began to surface out of Chrisitianity. from what i have read, Jesus preached love and acceptance. Look at the tax collector story. Do u think perhaps the hate often experieced by those who are non faith is justified in much the same way the hebrews justified their genocide of Canaanite cultures? I do know alot of rules stemmed from the anal retentive cavities of St. Augustine (joke..you're supposed to laugh), such as the rule barring suicide. But where along the way did he begin to think that the more rules and orthodoxy the better? where did it all go corrupt. Like communism, it COULD have been a good idea, but somewhere along the way it's purpose changed from feeling a god's love and giving strength to the weak into a control method. Hebrew cultire was already as such seeing as how the only people who had contact with "god" were the male patriarchs of each clan, this they ruled by divine right. Could perhaps this have had some influence on how Christianity lost sight? I DO beleive it has lost sight of it's original intentions. Do i actually beleive there was anything to believe in at the start...no...BUT..the idea that people could have a superior being just to make them feel better and give them strength inside themselves is a great idea. It's when control and hate set in that it no longer meets needs.
THROUGH ME YOU GO INTO PAIN THAT IS ETERNAL,
THROUGH ME YOU GO AMONG PEOPLE LOST.
JUSTICE MOVED MY EXALTED CREATOR:
THE DIVINE POWER MADE ME,
THE SUPREME WISDOM AND THE PRIMA LOVE.
BEFORE ME ALL CREATED THINGS WERE ETERNAL,
AND ETERNAL WILL LAST.
ABANDON EVERY HOPE YOU WHO ENTER HERE.
Dante's Inferno, Canto III
posted 01-15-200104:02 PM Ê Ê
Rictus
Member
3203 Posts
Member since:
06-05-2000
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Mike sorrow, I've enjoyed your stuff before, I'm glad you came here, welcome.
OK, I've got some news, Mr. Order thinks he can get our old thread back from the archives, if we want it. So, I'm asking, do we? I'm easy. Obviously, I like the old thread, but we have the link here, and lots of newcomers, so maybe we should leave it. But I want your opinions.
"All the drugs in this world
Won't save her from herself..."
"Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love)
posted 01-15-200104:03 PM Ê Ê
Rosa_McGee
Member
841 Posts
Member since:
08-16-2000
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@ rictus... *slight blush*... uh, thanks for compliments ....
posted 01-15-200104:03 PM Ê Ê
Rictus
Member
3203 Posts
Member since:
06-05-2000
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@Devilmunchkin: I think theres some good points there. I said before, I've got no problem with the gosbel, because it is ultimately a tollerant message, but a lot of the dogma...
I'll be interested in what freegrace has to say, but, yeah...
@Rosa: I call them like I see 'em.
"All the drugs in this world
Won't save her from herself..."
"Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love)
posted 01-15-200104:07 PM Ê Ê
All times are PST .
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