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Confusion Between William W. CRISP & William M. CRISP
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 08:11:34 -0500
To: CRISP Researchers (Before CRISP-L)
From: gamara@mail.utexas.edu - Joanne WALSH
I don't know if I am the only one who is confused but I think there is some confusion about
these two lines (William W and William M).
I will start with what I know about William M. Crisp (Bob Crisp's line)
He was probably the son of Mansel Crisp. Based on 1830 census of Hardeman Co TN,
Mansel Crisp could have been born between 1760 and 1770 if he was the male aged
60-70 or between 1790 and 1800 if he is the male between 30-40. Since Mancil is
married by 1816 in record from Land Deed Genealogy of Bedford Co TN, he was probably
the older man. From this same census, William M Crisp was born between 1780 and 1790.
>From: Abstracts of Early Records of Laurens Co., SC 1785-1820
compiled by Sara M Nash:
DB E p 135 12/14/1793 - 2/17/1794
Mansil and Wm Crisp witness to sale of land.
DB E p 396 8/16/1794 - 2/18/1795
Wm Crisp & w. Elizabeth sell 100 acres of land to Charles Parks (part of 155 acre grant).
[This apparently is Mancil and his parents Wm & Elizabeth if William M was born between
1780- 1790.]
>From: Land Deed Genealogy of Bedford Co., TN 1807-1852 p. 96 DB G:
Mancil Crisp and Margaret his wife of Maury Co TN sold to John H Anderson of Bedford Co.,
TN land in Bedford Co. Registered 25 Apr 1816.
Same book DB F p 86
Shows land being sold to William M Crisp, of Bedford Co., TN. Registered 9 Oct 1815.
>From: Maury Co., TN Will Books 1807-1832 p. 142
Names of Mansil Crisp, William Crisp, Mrs. Esl__ Crisp, Tilman A. Crisp and Reddin Taylor
appear in listing "Inventory of Henry Harris, deceased, recorded 10 September 1829 -
open accounts"
[Note the name Reddin - this must not have been too unusual as a first name - or is this a
clue to a connection to Crisp family]
Bob Crisp thinks this Mrs. Esl__ may be Mancil's mother since there are records in SC of
a William and Elizabeth. He also says Tilman is son of Mancil. He says Mancil stays in
Hardeman Co., TN and William M goes to TX.
>From: 1840 Citizens of Texas Vol 1 Land Grants:
William M Crisp arrived Nov 1837; 640 acres, class 3 (married with family); conditional
certificate Red River Co. Mar 21 1839; unconditional certificate Lamar Co. Aug 2 1841.
There is also a Mansel R Crisp who arrived TX in Nov 1837; 320 acres, class 3 (single or
alone); conditional certificate Red River Co Dec 28, 1839; unconditional certificate Lamar Co.
May 3, 1841.
>From: 1840 Citizens of Texas Vol 2 Tax Rolls Red River Co., TX:
William M Crisp (1 poll tax, 640 acres, 2 slaves)
Nov. 21, 1846 letter to appoint attorney to apply for headright for Mansil R Crisp shows attest:
Mrs (I think) M Crisp, Wm O Matthews.
Bob Crisp says mention of Wm O Matthews may be significant since it shows Mansil R Crisp
connected to Matthews family and more likely that William M Crisp married Elizabeth Matthews.
The land Mansil Crisp got in 1839 still shows him as original grantee on current day Hopkins Co.
maps. It is located outside of the town of Weaver which is about 10 miles east of Sulphur
Springs on US 67/I 30. The adjacent parcels show names of James L Stephens and Jose
Zunega. (I don't know anything about either of these men)
Wm M Crisp was one of the signers on a petition in Oct 1841 to establish a Bowie County
(It became part of present day Lamar Co).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now for William W Crisp (my line)
He shows up in Cooke Co., TX land records as getting 160 acres, he claimed preemption on
Feb. 2, 1855. He is shown as original grantee on land maps for Cooke Co. Three parcels
were adjacent to each other: Samuel M Crisp, John M Crisp and William W Crisp.
On July 26, 1858 record says "do hereby certify that Elizabeth Crisp has resided upon
and cultivated the tract of land as surveyed for Wm Crisp deceased. She being deceased
widow. Which survey was made ... on the 2nd day of Feb 1855." "The above facts were
fully proven to me by the oaths of John M. Crisps and John S. Martin two respectable
witnesses to me well known" signed by Chief Justice County Court.
So William W Crisp died sometime between 1855 and 1858. He is listed in tax records for
Cooke Co., TX in 1855 and 1856. I could not find his name in 1857. Then in 1858 his
wife is listed instead of him. Elizabeth is also listed in 1859 and 1860. In 1862 she is not
listed, only S. M. Crisp and Greenville Crisp. This narrows the death date for William W.
down to 1857 -1858.
John M. Crisp's land record shows 160 acres with preemption requested Feb. 2, 1855.
Notes that it joins S. M. Crisp and J. M. Bailey. Samuel M. Crisp's record also shows
160 acres on Feb. 2, 1855.
On 1850 census for Hopkins Co., TX, the children of Samuel M Crisp show James E Crisp
as the first child born in TX. He was born about 1845 (5 years old on census). John M
Crisp, the next oldest child, was born about 1843 (7 years old) in KY.
Therefore, the Samuel M Crisp family must have come to TX between 1843 and 1845.
In 1850 census for Hopkins Co., TX, William W is living next door to Samuel M Crisp.
William's age is shown as 67, born in NC. So he must have been born about 1783.
A son John age 24, born KY, is listed with William and Elizabeth. Value of real estate
is $620. Elizabeth is shown as age 61 born in GA.
[I have not found anything that links Elizabeth wife of William W CRISP to Matthews
family although some claim her father was a Matthews]
Tax records for Hopkins Co., TX begin with 1846. William and Samuel Crisp are both
listed. In 1847 John Crisp is also shown. 1848 William is shown as original grantee on
his land. The tax roll lists number of Negroes, horses and cattle. None of the columns
has information for William and Samuel. [Maybe they were either too poor or did not
believe in slavery.]
In 1848 the tax roll also lists Carroll Crisp and Mc Crisp. [I assume the latter is McNease
Crisp.] Carroll owned 2 slaves and Mc had 1. William is listed again in 1849. John M
and Samuel are listed in 1850 along with Carroll, Redden and McNeece. Samuel again
shown in 1851.
>From book: Pioneers of Hopkins Co., TX (Vol 1 p. 99):
"In 1841, Reddin Crisp moved from Missouri with his family to Texas and settled in the
northern part of Hopkins County. Reddin and his wife, Ruth Hicklin, had ten children:
John, Hannah, Greenville, William, Sallie, Carroll, McLendon, McNease, Reddin and
Betsy."
[This Reddin Crisp could have been William W. Crisp's brother. Samuel Crisp, Sr. son of
old William Crisp, had a son named Reddin - is this the same person?]
1830 census Jackson Co., MO
1830 Reddin Crisp was shown on census for Jackson Co., MO
1840 census Barry Co., MO
has R Crisp
1 m 5-10
1 m 10-15
1 m 15-20
1 m 50-60
1 f 50-60 (this would match Ruthy's age on 1860 census)
>From: 1840 Citizens of Texas Vol 3 Land Grants:
Reddin Crisp arrived Dec 1841; got 640 acres, class 4; conditional grant Lamar Co. Mar 11,
1845; unconditional grant Lamar Co Mar 11, 1845.
>From: Red River Co., TX Deed Abstracts 1846-1855, Deed Record F, p. 320:
Deed in trust Mar 14, 1846 Redding G. Crisp deceased, father of Elizabeth (English), wife of
Campbell English.
>From: Red River Co., TX Deed Abstracts Vol 1 Deed Book A-B 1838-1850 p. 25:
Deed of Gift Reddin Crisp, Sr. to Reddin Crisp, Jr, my youngest son, Negro boy named
Sampson, 13 years May 14, 1844.
>In 1850 census for Hopkins Co., TX
Ruthy Crisp age 64 born TN is shown with children. Her age would make date of birth
about 1786. If Redden was approximately same age, would put him in similar age bracket as
William W. CRISP. Ruthy owned 8 slaves in 1850.
>I think it is interesting/important to note that Reddin names son Greenville. William W.
has grandson named Greenville (son of Samuel Mathis).
I assume that it is Redden's son Greenville who married Elizabeth Cochell Aug. 6, 1836
in Johnson Co., MO (From: Missouri Marriages Before 1840 by Susan Ormisher).
>I don't know if this is the same Matthews family as shown in proximity to Mancil R Crisp,
but in Hopkins Co., TX marriages, McNees Crisp married Sarah P. Matthews on June 20,
1850. I assume this is Redden's son McNease.
>Another Matthews note:
From- Red River Co., TX Deed Abstracts 1846 - 1855, Deed Record F, p. 418
bond June 8, 1843 M. W. Mathews is bound to Reddin Crisp, $500, for 200 acres...
>Samuel Crisp's record shows "Abandoned" - My guess is he fled Cooke Co., TX at the
time of the Great Hanging in Gainesville. The records for J. M. Crisp and W. W. Crisp do
not have this annotation and they continue to be shown as original grantees on current day
maps. The parcel that did have S. M. Crisp now shows Wm Moore as original grantee.
>At least one person named Crisp (John M) was among the ones who were hanged at
Gainesville. He was a blacksmith who was born in KY in 1824 according to footnote in
George Washington Diamond's account of the Great Hanging at Gainesville, 1862.
This John M Crisp is quoted in his trial as saying "I have initiated six person,
in all, to wit: Sam'l Crisp, H. J. Essman, Eli Hinkle, I. M. Baily, Mansell Baily, and Dr. Eli
Thomas."
There was only one recorded Samuel Crisp in Cooke Co., TX so this must be
Samuel Mathis Crisp. Samuel's daughter Elizabeth Martha who died in 1857 had married
Hudson J. Esmon. This may be the H. J. Essman in the list.
[Note the name Mansell Baily - is this an indication that Mansell is not an unusual first
name or is it a clue to a tie back to Mansel Crisp line?]
I have no record that shows that the John M Crisp who was hanged had a middle name
of Mansell but some folks show that as his middle name.
>1860 census for Cooke Co., TX, Gainesville
dwelling 525 Samuel Crisp 46 b KY farmer (this is Samuel Mathis)
Eliza J 40 KY
Wm M 19 KY
James E 14 TX
Greenville 12 TX
Robt S 9 TX
Thos J 5 TX
Eliza J 1 TX
(he later has son named Samuel Duzal among other children with different
wife)
1860 census for Cooke Co., TX, Gainesville - continued
dwelling 522 John Crisp 39 b KY farmer (if age was misread as 39 instead of 34,
would match age from 1850 census)
Elizabeth 20 KY
Catherine 11 MO
Mary 4 Tx
Nancy 3 TX
Wm T 2 TX
Samuel D 1 TX
dwelling 395 John W/M Crisp` 36 b KY blacksmith (can't be sure of middle initial from
census)
wife's name is hard to read age 20 b MO
Wm L 6 TX
Mary E 2 TX
John M 8/12 TX
from this I would guess that dwelling 522 was brother of Samuel, not dwelling 395
>More Matthews connections:
1820 Monroe Co., KY
William Crisp
Oliver Matthews
Samuel Matthews
1830 Monroe Co., KY
William Crisp
1 w m under 5
1 w m 5-10
2 w m 15-20
1 w m 40-50
1 w f 10-15
1 w f 30-40
[This matches ages for William W and wife Elizabeth. Samuel could be one of males
15-20 since he was born in 1814. John could be the male under 5 based on age of
24 in 1850.]
Samuel Matthews
2 w m 10-15
1 w m 15-20
1 w m 50-60
1 w f under 5
2 w f 5-10
1 w f 20-30
1 w f 40-50
Robert Matthews
1 w m under 5
1 w m 20-30
1 w f 15-20
1840 Monroe Co., KY
page 236
Mary Matthews (wonder why under her name?)
1 w m 10-15
1 w m 15-20
1 w m 30-40
1 w f 10-15
1 w f 15-20
1 w f 30-40
Wm W Crisp
1 w m 10-15
1 w m 50-60
1 w f 5-10
1 w f 20-30
1 w f 50-60
[This matches 1850 census for Wm W Crisp so far as ages for Wm W, wife Elizabeth and
son John. Don't know about the other females.]
page 237
Samuel Matthews
1 w m under 5
2 w m 5-10
1 w m 10-15
1 w m 20-30
1 w m 50-60
3 w f under 5
1 w f 5-10
2 w f 10-15
1 w f 15-20
1 w f 30-40
1 w f 50-60
Samuel M Crisp
1 w m 20-30 [matches 1814 birthdate of Samuel Mathis]
1 w f under 5
1 w f 15-20
page 241-242
W. Matthews
2 w m under 5
2 w m 5-10
1 w m 10-15
1 w m 15-20
1 w m 30-40
1 w f 5-10
1 w f 10-15
1 w f 20-30
1840 Monroe Co., KY
page 241-242 - continued
John Matthews
1 w m 15-20
1 w m 20-30
1 w m 40-50
1 w m 70-80
1 w f 15-20
1 w f 40-50
1 w f 60-70
>From: Red River County Deed Abstracts, Republic of Texas and State of Coahuila
and Texas (Mexico), to Feb 19 1946 Annexation to United States
p. 12 of book
"Page 153 Land certifcate Issued to Bushrod Osbourne, oath proved by Amos C C
Baly, R M Hopkins. 13 Feb 1838. Bond signed by M W Matthews, Presd Boar L Com,
and James Latimer. B Gooch, clk."
This Amos C C Baly is son-in-law of Pennina Lucinda Crisp.
Pennina who married Joseph Cromwell Matthews names one son Mansel Walter.
[There is that name Mansel again.]
[Is this the same M W Matthews who was bound to Reddin Crisp in June 1843? How is
he related to Joseph Cromwell Matthews?]
"Page 157 Power of atty, 1 Jan 1838 Nancy A Hagan, being entitled to 1280 acres,
to Campbell English for purpose of obtaining land and power to make deed to 640 acres.
Wit: A C C Baily, John Thompson."
[Elizabeth daughter of Redden Crisp was wife of Campbell English. A C C Baily was
son-in-law of Pennina Crisp Matthews.]
"Page 157 Bond for land Nancy A Hagan binds self to Campbell English, for $10,000.00
to make deed for 640 acres. Wit: A C C Baily, John Thompson."
***********
So part of my confusion - how do these Crisp and Matthews lines connect or interconnnect.
Using the Mansel name, for example, you would think that Pennina Crisp who names son
Mansel would go with the William M Crisp line. Using the Greenville and Redden names you
could think that William W and Redden go back to Samuel Sr (son of old William). But the
paths seem to cross and recross. Am I missing something?
Sorry this is so long but I tried to pull various bits and pieces together.
Joanne Walsh
Cedar Park, TX
gamara@mail.utexas.edu
Re: confusion between Wm W and Wm M Crisp
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 16:14:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Robert M. Crisp"
To: GAMERA! - Joanne WALSH
& Other CRISP Researchers
The confusion is understandable and many of your questions have no answer.
But you seem to have William Mansil Crisp b. 1788 md Hannah Wilson separated from
William W. Crisp. Your data is very good. The name "Mansil" is unusual and I've never
seen it except in the Crisp line: it's not a common given name.
The real question to me is the use of the name "Mansil". Is it only used by chd. of Old
William's 1st wife, is it used by chd of 1st and 2nd wife or some 3rd possibility. The name
first appears, by my records, as a land record in NC as William Mansil Crisp. This caused
some people to want to assign Mansil as middle name for Old William. The assumption
was that Old William had land records and the one including "Mansil" was a reference to
Old William. But people born around 1700 rarely had middle names. None of Old William's
kids have a middle name that's been proven to my knowledge.
The big problem is that we've never been able to find, with certainty, John and William,
sons of Old William by his first wife(s). The William in SC is a good candidate for William.
And, either the John in Burke Co. or the John in Caswell Co. are possibilities for John.
There is very little info on the William in SC and the John in Burke Co: no wills, marriage
records, Bible records, etc. Generally only some land records. So we know practially nothing
about John and William. We would know very little about Bray if his kids had not sued the
estate and named everybody! And his name is unusual enough that we can track him better.
With John and William, we never know if they are the same or different John's or William's!
The name "Mansil" has been a crucial clue I think. Bray does not use the name "mansil"
for his kids but he only has 4 and names them William, Alexander, Elizabeth and Isaac.
However, William s/o Bray does name a son Mansil so it does run to this 2nd generation from
Bray. But we have so many "mansil" names. Now there could be 3 possibilities as I see
it (probably more but these are likely):
1. Mansil is name of 1st wife of Old William and is used by desc. of this first marriage. It
would then not be used by desc. of Frances as it's not their family name. We do have a
Mary Mansell, b. 1692 and a Elizabeth Mansell b. 1695, d/o William Mansell in area with
Old William as good candidates for wife if this case is correct.
2. Mansil is a name going back to Old William, like his mother's maiden name, and would be
used by any of the kids.
3. We have a new William Crisp showing up in NC and is not a son or g'son of Old Wm.
but maybe a cousin, etc. This is why it is important to know if William W. Crisp or Reden
descend from Samuel Sr. s/o Old Wm. as it would rule out possibility #1 and probably #3.
So, it's more than just connecting these two but also other desc. and how/if they connect
to Old Wm.
A sidenote: there is a book "Hicklin Families in America" in LDS library which I saw some
years back. It gives ancestry on Ruth Hicklin w/o Reden G. and it indicates they may have
been in SC? If so, then this could be significant as it would put them with other Crisp in SC?
Now Mansil Crisp (NC, 1764) is too young to be a grandson of Old Wm.'s "last" marriage
to Frances. So this tends to rule out the name being unique to last wife Frances. But he
would fit as s/o John or William.
William W. Crisp and Reden G. Crisp are key in this question. Also keep in mind that we
have Prescott Crisp b. 1765/75 who uses name "mansil" but we don't know his father?
And we have Moses probably b. abt. same time as Prescott and Moses uses name "mansil".
Again we don't know Moses's father but Moses acts like brother to Mansil (NC, 1764)? So
we can add them to the list of "Crisp using Mansil". Peninah Crisp md. Matthews looks/acts
like sister to Mansil and uses the "mansil" name.
I personally think all of these "mansil-users" are desc. of William Crisp or John Crisp, sons
of Old William. I keep looking/hoping for that one item which might tie this together or at
least answer some of the questions above.
It is confusing but that's part of the mystery and fun!
Bob
**********************************************************************
* Robert M. Crisp, Ph.D., P.E.
* Professor
* Computer Systems Engineering Dept.
* University of Arkansas
* Fayetteville, AR
**********************************************************************
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A Tale of Dos Williams
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 08:43:13 -0500
To: CRISP Researchers (Before CRISP-L)
From: gamara@mail.utexas.edu (GAMERA!) - Joanne WALSH
5-10-97
Thanks, Bob, for your quick response to my "confusing" memo earlier today.
You mentioned that William M Crisp b 1788 married Hannah Wilson. His wife's name
from the Texas records is Elizabeth. What happened to Hannah and when did he
marry Elizabeth?
The parallels between these two guys really creates a puzzle. Both named William,
born about the same time in NC, both have wives at the time of their deaths named
Elizabeth. Both settled in basically the same part of Texas. One came by way of
TN, the other by way of KY.
Any one else have any parts of this puzzle that they want to share?
Bob, what else do you know about Samuel Sr.'s son Redden?
Joanne WALSH
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This data from Joanne WALSH & Robert M. "Bob" CRISP
