What's
at the heart of it is still the same sort of questing after the
country that you're carrying in your heart, the country that you
want your kids to grow up in."
A few months back, there was a movement afoot to "Draft
Bruce" for a proposed political concert that would go
head-to-head with the GOP Convention. A statement from Springsteen's
publicist read simply, "Bruce Springsteen will definitely not
perform at any concerts tied to either the Republican or Democratic
conventions." True -- but that wasn't to say that he didn't
have plans of his own.
Back in the spring, a group of artists including Springsteen had
begun to privately discuss how they could make a difference in the
November election. The resulting Vote for Change coalition attracted
a large roster of musicians that will be descending on swing states
in October, pairing Springsteen and the E Street Band with R.E.M.,
John Fogerty, and Bright Eyes for five concerts from Philly to
Florida (see further down this page for complete Vote for Change
tour details).
On the Friday after the Democratic National Convention ended, Bruce
Springsteen spoke with Backstreets by phone about the state of the
nation, his motivations behind these concerts, misinterpretation of
his songs, and how activism affects the artist/audience bond.
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Interview
by Backstreets Editor Christopher Phillips
Backstreets:
You've supported a lot of causes over the years, but as political
and socially conscious as a lot of your work has been, this is the
first time you've really weighed in on electoral politics. So I
guess the big question is, why now?
Bruce
Springsteen: Basically, this is probably the most important
election of my lifetime. I think that the government has drifted too
far from American values. After 9/11, I was like everybody else -- I
supported going into Afghanistan, and I felt tremendous unity in the
country that I don't think I’ve ever felt exactly like that before.
It was a moment of great sadness, but also tremendous possibility.
And I think that was dashed when we jumped headlong into the Iraq
war, which I never understood, and I talked about that on the road.
I never understood how or why we really ended up there. We offered
up the lives of the best of our young people under circumstances
that have been discredited. I had to live through that when I was
young myself, and for any of us that lived through the Vietnam War,
it was just very devastating.
Along with that, the deficits, the squeezing of services like the
after-school services for the kids who need it the most, the big
windfall tax cuts, the division of wealth that has threatened our
connection to one another over the past 20 years that is increasing...
these are things that as the election time neared -- I couldn't
really keep true to the ideas that I'd written about for 30 years
without weighing in on this one.
I don't think I've seen anything like it before in my lifetime. I
think that the freedoms that we've taken for granted -- I spoke
about this on the road a little bit, too -- they are slowly being
eroded. In the past I've gotten involved in a lot of grassroots
organizations that sort of expressed my views, and where I thought I
could be of some small help. I guess I've been doing that for about
20 years, and that was a way that I was very happy to work. I always
believed that it was good for the artist to remain distant from the
seat of power, to retain your independent voice, and that was the
way I liked to conduct my work. But the stakes in this one are just
too high. I felt like, given what I’ve written about, the things
that I've wanted our band to stand for over the years, it's just too
big a battle to lay out of.
Backstreets:
A lot of great, unique artists are coming together for these shows
-- R.E.M., Pearl Jam, Jurassic 5, Bonnie Raitt –- so I’m
guessing that even with the unity of at least one common goal, there
will be some different viewpoints. How much expression of that do
you think there will be? Will we get different perspectives from
different artists?
Springsteen:
I would imagine so -- as different as all the artists involved. I
think we've all come together with one goal in mind, but I think
everybody's idea of where it goes from there could very well be
different. Myself, I like John Kerry a lot. I don't think he has all
the answers, or that John Edwards has all the answers, but I think
they have the experience, the life experience, and I think they have
the sincerity to ask the hard questions about America and to try to
search for honest solutions. I believe they're going to do that. And
I don't feel that way about the guys who are in there right now. I
feel that trust has been broken, and there's no going back.
Backstreets:
What did you think of Kerry's speech [at the Democratic National
Convention]?
Springsteen:
I thought it was fantastic -- the best one I've heard him give.
Backstreets:
And using "No Surrender! for his entrance music -- is that
something the campaign clears with you in advance?
Springsteen:
No -- somebody mentioned to me that they'd heard it at different
rallies here and there, around the country... but it was a nice call.
Backstreets:
You've focused a whole lot more on issues than labels or parties
over the years -- whether that's Democrat, Republican, Independent,
Reform, Green, or anything else. That has appeared to be a very
conscious decision, so in this case was it just that things reached
a tipping point?
Springsteen:
Yeah, I would say. I mean, I grew up in a Democratic house. The only
political discussion I ever remember in my house was when I came
home from school when I was little -- I think someone asked me at
school what we were, it must have been during an election season at
some point, and I was probably around my son's age, eight or nine.
And I came home and said, "Mom, what are we?" And she said,
"Oh, we're Democrats. We're Democrats because they're for the
working people." And that was it -- that was the political
discussion that went on in my house over about 18 years.
So I've always held progressive beliefs, or liberal beliefs. I think
that when I went to write -- you’re shaped by your background,
fundamentally, there’s no getting around it. I lived in a
household that was caught in the squeeze, endlessly trying to make
ends meet. My mother running down to the finance company, borrowing
money to have a Christmas, and then paying it back all year until
the next Christmas and borrowing some more. So I know what that’s
like. This time out, there just wasn’t really any way I could sit
on the sidelines.
Backstreets:
That makes me think about that "criticism" you always seem
to get: how can a millionaire still write about blue collar concerns?
Something similar gets leveled at Edwards: he’s the son of a mill
worker, and yet he turned into a millionaire lawyer, as if one
negates the other. But clearly those formative experiences help
shape how you see the world.
Springsteen:
That criticism is also a tremendously muddled idea of how writers
write. First of all, have you ever been to Mark Twain's house?
Backstreets:
No, I never have.
Springsteen:
It's really nice [laughs]. The room he wrote in is beautiful.
Backstreets:
It wasn't a whitewashed shack with a bunch of frogs hopping around
outside?
Springsteen:
No, it's a really beautiful Victorian home. So it's been done before!
[laughs]... It seems to me that particular criticism gets aimed at
musicians rather than, say, filmmakers. Nobody complains that Marty
Scorcese isn't actually in the Mafia. It always comes up -- I've
settled into the fact that I'll be answering that question for the
rest of my working life. But it's a muddled understanding of the way
that things get written.
Backstreets:
Well, I hear you've been writing up a storm these days.
Springsteen:
People say that all the time. I wish that were true!
Backstreets:
Just wondering if we should be looking for any new material on the
tour, if you've written anything for it specifically?
Springsteen:
I'm always trying... I don't have anything until I have it, you know?
Actually, I took a lot of time off -- Patti was working on her
record, and so I've been spending time with the kids, and I enjoyed
watching her work. I'm always writing, I'm always trying to come up
with something, but until I have it, I don't have it. So I can't
predict.
Backstreets:
You've said that "a writer writes to be understood." And
there's been so much misinterpretation of your songs over the years,
the obvious ones being "Born in the U.S.A." and "American
Skin (41 Shots)." For the most part, you've let your songs do
the talking, but I'm wondering, in addition to the changes these
shows are trying to effect in the country, if you think this will
give your audience more clarity as far as the meaning and intent of
your writing?
Springsteen:
I don't know, it's possible. Basically, I have faith in the songs.
And I also surrender to the reality that once your songs are out
there, that you're simply another voice in the ongoing discussion to
define them. That's just the way it plays. And that's okay -- I
think they're out there to be debated, some of them. It's funny with
"American Skin," I do run into people who thoroughly
believed the New York Post’s interpretation of that piece of music!
But I've also run into a lot of people who completely understood
what I was trying to say. And that's the way that it goes. When
those songs go out there, then you add your voice to the chorus of
people fighting for their definition and what they stand for. I have
an edge, because I've still got the guitar in my hand.
But it's possible -- it's not something I thought about, but it may.
Backstreets:
In the past when you've felt the need to define something more
clearly -- I'm thinking right now of "Empty Sky" at the
[2003] Atlantic City show, when you made it very clear what you
intended "an eye for an eye" to mean -- what goes through
your head when you decide to clarify things like that?
Springsteen:
I have no compunction about stopping and telling someone what I mean.
There's a moment to do that. And so, hey, I had the stage at the
moment [laughs], and generally if I feel any sort of recurring
misunderstanding that’s occurred more than a few nights running, I'll
say, "Okay, there’s a few people..." Maybe there's 100,
maybe there's ten. Maybe there's two. Maybe I'm just hearing the guy
who's making the noise at that moment. But in the end, I am speaking
to you. I'm speaking to you individually. And so I don't have a
problem stopping at a particular moment and making clear my
intentions. And now with the fabulous help of the Internet [laughs],
those intentions are instantaneously around the world, and it helps
clear things up even faster.
Backstreets:
Well, hey, happy we could be of service!
Springsteen:
Or muddle things even quicker, I suppose... But when you have an
audience the size of mine, that audience is broad. And when I spoke
about the Iraq war during this past tour, before the truth came out,
there were people who cheered, and there were people who booed. And
that’s the way it rolls. I tended to keep my comments down to
approximately two minutes at the end of the night, which I felt was
a pretty good balance to the three hours that we’d spent playing,
you know?
I do believe that you serve at the behest of the audience. But, at
the same time, I believe that my ideas and the beliefs that our band
has stood for over the years are an integral part of our work, and
we have a duty to make those ideas as clear as possible. To make our
stand at different moments as clear as possible. I think that's part
of what people look to us for, that's a part of what we have
provided to a portion of our audience. And I think on any given
night I’m playing to many of my audiences out there. There's the
Tom Joad audience, there's the "Dancing in the Dark"
audience, but hey, they're all there at that particular moment. So I
look at it as a part of our process. You also figure, these are the
times we're working in. And I think you've got to take your stand in
them.
Backstreets:
When some conservative fans bristled at some of that stuff last
summer, like your mention of the Al Franken book, I think some
people felt that it was a contradiction of your welcome to fans of
all political persuasions. I guess I always just took that as,
"Everybody is welcome here, but that doesn't mean that I
won’t speak my mind or challenge you on occasion."
Springsteen:
That's right. It's pretty simple. I don’t need people cheering
everything I'm doing -- I don't go out expecting that, and we've
done enough that I've seen both sides of the coin. And that's all
right. The show is a forum of ideas. That's one of the things that
we try to provide over the course of the evening. And as such, that's
part of what you're getting when you walk through the doors.
Backstreets:
Which shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody who has been following
you for any decent length of time. Some fans seem to have been taken
aback by the posting of Al Gore's speech on your website, or the
impeachment jokes onstage, but it seems to me that your political
stance and your social concerns have been consistent for a long
time.
Springsteen:
Yeah, I would be surprised if there are longtime fans who were
surprised. I could see somebody who sort of casually comes in and
out depending on what you're doing, or on a particular song, but I
think if you followed us over the past 30 years, our positions on
most social issues have been consistent and straightforward.
Backstreets:
Some people may have blinders on and just choose not to see it, or
choose to take the "good parts" and leave the rest.
Springsteen:
That’s true -- I think that part of the audience/artist
relationship is one of intense identification. "You're me, I'm
you." That is a big part of the deal. And I think part of what
we do is say, "Well, yeah, we are one. But we are not the same
one."
I love John Wayne's work like crazy. I've found great inspiration
and soul in it my whole life. I’m not a fan of John Wayne's
politics. But I love John Wayne, and I love the work he's done. And
so that's how it bounces sometimes.
Backstreets:
So who inspires you not just artistically but politically as well?
It looks like John Fogerty is going to be on the bill, and his songs
seem to be a touchstone for you in that way.
Springsteen:
Really, if I go back to it, when I was really young, even with Steel
Mill, we did the local benefits, marches down to Washington in the
late '60s. So the truth of it is, if you're in my generation and if
you grew up in any part of the alternative culture, that was just a
part of your birthright. Whether you want to call it activism, or
concerned citizenry, that came as a part of those times. I find it
unusual when I meet people who did not have that experience from my
generation. They are out there, you know? But for me and most of my
friends, those were things that were just a part of growing up when
we did. And the people who we admired and emulated -- which for me
obviously begins with Dylan -- had a very clear political voice.
John [Fogerty] did it more subtly, but fabulously also.
And so I took my own spin on it. I couldn't exactly tell you why I
started writing in that direction. It's funny, Steve [Van Zandt]
went on to be one of the most political songwriters, but back in the
early times, he was like, "I don't know if those should mix."
[laughs] That's classic Steve -- when he goes, he goes! There's no
coming back! That's Steve Van Zandt. [laughs]
But yeah, when I was very young, maybe it was because of my
background, or because of the music that I liked -- I was interested
in the class-conscious music of the Animals -- these are things that
spoke to me and that I also wanted to address in my own music. That
was really the way I came to it. I didn’t have a political
education when I was young, as I said, I didn't really grow up in a
political family. The politics in my town were small-town politics.
So it was something that, in truth, I really came to through popular
music. Through a combination of the times and popular music.
Backstreets:
As political awakenings go, I've always had the impression that the
time around The River was big for both you and Steve, as far as
getting out of the States and seeing our country through other eyes.
Springsteen:
I know for Steve it was a tremendous awakening, that tour. More so
for him maybe than for me, because I had kind of started to write
about it on Darkness on the Edge of Town and The River already,
really before we went overseas. But I know for Steve it was
tremendous. We went to East Berlin together, and it was quite an
experience, East Berlin at that time. It was real noticeable, what
that does to you. And also, when you spend a good amount of time
over there, you do have a moment to step out of the United States
and look back with a critical eye.
If there was one single thing I'd like to give every high school kid
in the United States, it would be a two-month trip through Europe at
some point during the formative years. Because it's very difficult
to conjure up a real worldview from within our borders. It's hard.
It's hard because we're so big, and the hegemony of American culture
is so weighty and so heavy that it's very difficult without stepping
outside and realizing what it's like to have the next country just a
two-hour drive away, to have a certain kind of interdependence that
is different than what we have here. It's just a certain view of the
way the world works that is different. So if I could give every
young kid one thing, that would be it -- because it would broaden
what we listen to, the way we perceive ourselves, the types of
leaders we choose. It would change the nation dramatically.
I always remember going down to South America on the Amnesty tour
and hearing incredible music, or going into Africa and seeing some
amazing acts that opened up for us on that tour, and realizing that
only a miniscule amount of people are going to hear this music back
in the United States. Meanwhile, a six- or seven-piece rock band
from Central Jersey is playing the Ivory Coast, and people who have
barely heard our music before are going crazy. And we're speaking
English, you know? The openness I've found outside the United States
contrasted a bit to some of the closedness that we have here. And it's
not intentional – it's cultural. And it comes from a lack of
exposure to other things.
Backstreets:
What opened your eyes to some of those things initially? On the
River tour you talked about the Joe Klein book, Woody Guthrie: A
Life. Was that book pivotal for you?
Springsteen:
That's a big book, a very powerful book. I was looking for ways that
other people went about creating work that spoke to all of these
things -- emotional, and social, and political, the environment of
the day. How did other people do that? How did they balance their
creative instincts and their political instincts? I was a very
different creature in that, hey, I was a successful pop musician,
and that changes the cards to some degree. But at the same time,
what’s at the heart of it is still the same sort of questing after
the country that you're carrying in your heart, the country that you
want your kids to grow up in. So I studied all of my forefathers
very intently along the way. And I just put together something that
felt right for us, and for me.
Backstreets:
One of the purposes of art is to reflect our world back to us. And
there's so much animosity and fear surrounding that right now -- a
lot of people, the whole "shut up and sing" faction, seem
to think that's not what an artist should be doing. But considering
the folk tradition you're a part of, thinking about Woody Guthrie,
"shut up and sing" is a real oxymoron.
Springsteen:
First of all, there's a long tradition of artist involvement in the
nation's social and political life. Woody Guthrie, Bob Dylan, James
Brown, Curtis Mayfield, Public Enemy... not only was their music
joyous and exhilarating, but it was timely. And it was essential,
for me, to understanding some of the events the day. When they spoke,
I heard myself speaking. I felt a connectedness. So I think that any
time somebody in this country is telling somebody else to shut up,
they’re going in the wrong direction. No, no, no, you're supposed
to be promoting speech. You may like it, you may not like it -- I
hear a lot of things I don't like, either, but hey. [laughs]
Also, if you listen to the airwaves and the level of discussion out
there, we can't screw it up. It’s already broke! It's screwed
already [laughs]. So it's not like the musicians are going to come
in and screw all this up now, you know? That's not going to happen.
Backstreets:
It's amazing how violent some of the reactions have been -- like
what happened to Linda Rondstadt last week in Vegas.
Springsteen:
A tragicomedy... [laughs] The description of it was hilarious, you
know? The idea that people actually got worked up enough to throw
drinks, pull down concert posters, and storm the lobby or whatever,
and that they felt the need to escort her off the premises -- for
mentioning a film. That's scary. Or even the Dixie Chicks, who were
pounded so relentlessly. So it's kind of crazy. But right now we
live in very divided times; people's feelings about these issues are
very intense, and people are going to have strong responses to
anybody coming out and moving toward one side or the other.
Particularly if it's somebody who you like, or whose music you
admire. I think for a lot of people it severs a part of that artist/audience
bond. But that bond is a little more complicated than that. It's
just a little more complicated. I know what you’re saying: I think
we're waiting for the drums to start.
Backstreets:
Considering how divided things are, ideally, what's your goal on
this tour? What's the message, or the result that you're looking for?
Springsteen:
Well, the best thing is that we have a very simple result in mind --
and that result is to change the administration in November. So at
its core, it's a very direct goal. At the same time, working with
MoveOn and America Coming Together, we’re trying to get voters
registered, trying to get people mobilized to vote, trying to get
people out on the street to mobilize the progressive voters, to get
people involved in the democratic process. That’s the means to the
end. But the end is very clear for this short tour: we're out trying
to change the direction of the government, to add our voices to the
folks who are trying to make a change at the top.
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