HI THERE!
(Or: I couldn't counter or answer your arguments so I'll quit. I'll still pray for you though.)
Ladies and gentlemen, on these few pages of my personal opinions and such like, I have not as yet 'let rip'. And I didn't in the following exchange. Could've though. All my stuff is in green and my respondees text is in red. I have inserted some comments in bold black. Certain details have been removed to protect the gullible, but the overall content remains intact.
Some time ago I wrote my Genuine Invitation to Christians and then posted the following into several Christian newsgroups:
I am asking all Christians to pray for me - please see:
http://www.oocities.org/missus_gumby/somemore.htm
Thanks
--
* Martin James Burn - The English Atheist
*
* http://www.oocities.org/missus_gumby
*
* "We only half live when we only half think." - VoltaireAlso, my very good Atheist friend Suzanne promoted my URL in some Yahoo! religious chat rooms.
After a short while, up popped the following in one of the newsgroups:
Our Father has some sense of humour ... ;)
Okay, Gumby. You asked for it. ;)
(The prayer is nothing without its origin)
Exodus 3:14 - And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus
shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
John 8:58 - Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before
Abraham was, I am.
Hebrews 11:6 - But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he
that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of
them that diligently seek him.
Romans 10:17 - So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of
God.
---
Our Father knows His sheep. These sheep will find this out when their time
for recognition is due, and prior to this awareness, they were yet unfit
to receive it -- not because of human failings(He doesn't charge our
wrongs against us when we are bought with the Son's perfect,
eternally efficient atonement)
Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Isaiah 64:6 - But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our
righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our
iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Romans 8:1 - There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in
Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
...but because The Creator Himself had more ingredients to add first!
We're His masterpiece, so He will not hurry the work, nor will He skip the
tiniest step in order to bring us to our best presentation. THEN will He
reveal to His children the truth that they are, in fact, of a royal
family: the family of the Most High, the Almighty!
Now on to the prayer I have, just for you, Gumby aka English Atheist...
(by the way, our Father doesn't believe in atheists)
--- <><
Almighty L-rd and G-d of all creation, You gave me this letter to find
today because You want me to pray for this man. Thank You for directing
me to be involved, and help me know what to say for him.
In order to pray, I'd like to post the lyrics to a song You gave me to
write in 1989, about Barabbas, the criminal whose life was spared because
Your Son Jesus gave His own life in Barabbas' place. The sinner who
should have died that day, on THAT cross, must have been speechless, and
forever overwhelmed by the price required to free him.
BARABBAS -
Barabbas, you don't deserve your freedom,
you got it from a perfect man, how do you feel about the Son of G-d?
Barabbas, they chose you over Jesus,
although you were the worst of all, you heard them calling you to liberty!
Now you are alive!
You should never have survived,
See Him hanging there on the cross you were meant to bear,
Now your debt is paid, Pontius Pilate allowed the trade,
even in your sin, by the grace of the L-rd, you win!
Barabbas, we're all just like Barabbas,
we come into the world this way, we haven't got a hope to clear our names,
Barabbas, G-d showed you that you're helpless,
and then He sent His Son instead, you know you made your bed,
But Jesus went to sleep in it!Now you are redeemed!
Christ the Saviour loudly screamed
Father, forgive them,
for they know not what they did then,
Now you may go on,
Father gave His only Son,
so you are set free...
by the death of the L-rd, you see.
May the first day of your new life in Christ begin now.
In Jesus' name,
Amen.
____________________
Cheers!
<deleted>
--
PS -
the email address provided on your site didn't work, maybe my server had the hiccups, but give yours a looksee anyhow, ok?
And yea verily 'The English Atheist' replied thusly unto yonder newsgroup.
Hi <deleted>,
Call me Martin - I only used missus_gumby because martin and mister_gumby had already been used up! I gave my mail a looksee, but to no avail. As far as I tell my email is working OK but you could try this alternative: <snipped>@<deleted>.
The point of the web page http://www.oocities.org/missus_gumby/somemore.htm is to prove one way or the other that the power of prayer, in reality, works - or doesn't. And I am offering Christians an honest chance to prove it to their advantage. I will invite you, and any Christians who may read this reply, to re-examine the page and start praying for me to be converted. In your post to this newsgroup you have cited some biblical verses that purport to show the truth of God and Jesus, and show how sinful we all are etc., as a preamble to the prayer that you wrote/quote.
But I am not sure that you have quite got the gist of my request. On my web page I too have quoted a couple of bible verses. They are quite unambiguous. Thus:
"And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you." - Matthew 17:20
"And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive." - Jesus - Matthew 21:22
ie., Believers of Jesus and the Christian God can achieve incredible things, with only the slightest amount of faith, and that prayer is a method of achieving anything that is asked for. At the moment I am an Atheist, but I will put it to you again: please pray for me to become a Christian, and we will see what happens. Also, can you instruct me in the proper procedure and method of prayer? I am prepared to give it a go myself, whilst for the duration of the prayer suspending my disbelief.
You have also put in your posting that 'our Father doesn't believe in Atheists'. The feeling is mutual. :-) Nevertheless, it will take me a lot less time to prove that Atheists exist than it will for your God to prove that Atheists don't!
May I put you down as someone who is praying for me to become a Christian? And may I use your name on my web page if you are?
Cheers to you!
Martin J Burn - an English Atheist
At this point the exchange continued via email.
Hi there... absolutely PLEASE do list me as someone praying for you. I'm
very honoured to be involved; it's quite something to be asked, even if in
a general way. I look at it as being a kind of "midwife" - I get to help
bring a new life into being!
As for there being a way to pray, how about trying this?
"God, I don't even believe you're there, but if you are, I want to find
you. I really do want to know the truth. So if you exist, please show
yourself to me."
____I'm sure of you, Martin.
People who honestly attest to having no belief in God, but wish they did,
are perhaps the most courageous among us.
Keep me updated, I don't care how many times you may still say "atheist",
I want to know how you're getting on with this! Would you do that?
Cheerz again,
<deleted>
On we went...
Dear <deleted>,
Thank you for your email. I will put your name - as someone who is praying for me to become a Christian - on my page very soon. <snip>
I do not wish to decieve you, but I do not want to have a belief in a god or gods. Nor do I want to become a Christian. I urge that you re-read my page, and consider the basic premise contained therein.
Thank you for praying for me to be converted to have a belief in your God. Nothing has happened yet - I am still an Atheist. Please keep trying!
I have tried praying, using the little prayer that you emailed, again nothing happened. The method that I used was thinking the words and waiting for something to happen. In fact, I used the same method of praying as when I was a Christian church chiorboy in my youth (sadly, nothing happened then as I recall). Perhaps I am doing something wrong? Was that the correct procedure, or is there something more?
A thought has occurred to me. If God did speak to me, or appear to me in a vision or dream, how would I know for certain it wasn't the devil playing a trick on me? Again, I don't believe that any angels exist, even fallen angels, but if they did - would not the devil be quite adept at that sort of deception?
Please keep praying for me, and perhaps you could ask your Christian friends to join in as well!
Yours
Martin J Burn - an English Atheist
Contiuing on.
Hi, Martin...
Actually I DO understand the gist of your page, so forgive if my replies
seem to gloss over it. However, might you see that the underlying message
to me appears that you wouldn't even be bothering with such a thing unless
you truly wished to be convinced?
As Jesus had said to Doubting Thomas, blessed are they who have not seen,
and yet have believed.
For what it's worth, this is NOT in your control; God Himself is the author
of anyone's reception of faith. You can't turn yourself into a Christian
any more than a baby can conceive itself in its mother's womb. So there's
no trying required. You didn't miss out on any "step" per se, it's not in
your power to effect this work in your life, but you're on the correct
track by requesting collaborative prayer, because if a prayer is
fore-ordained by God, then it will NOT fail. Maybe not today, or next
week, but SOON, and for the rest of your life!
One way I like to look at it is:
if there IS no God, then you lose absolutely nothing by figuring, what the
hay, I'll just assume there IS, and conduct myself accordingly. The worst
that can possibly happen is that when I die, I get obliterated and then I'd
never know if I was right or wrong!
if there IS a God, and I DON'T receive Him as my Saviour, then there's a
much heavier price to pay than the one the Son did on my behalf.. Because
"hell" simply is ETERNAL SEPARATION FROM LOVE.
...One more thing while it's on my mind; I think a problem may stem from
the difference between "convinced" and "convicted".
'Convinced', of course, is largely intellectual, whereas 'convicted' is the
resignation that one has indeed scorned the one and ONLY Son of the Living
God, and has been broken down to hate that which alienated the Lord... in a
word, sin.
'Sin' is anything you should never do to your friends because it hurts them.
So what I'll pray for, from <snipped> is that God will begin
His work in your life and not give up on you.
Guess what ~ even if you can't feel anything, it's already started!
:)
("so certain are you?" Yoda)
Some killer questions...
Hi <snip>,
Greetings from rainy England!
Thank you for your email. Help! It seems as though you are, by far, more
educated and adept in religion and religious debate than myself, but I will
try to keep up. I only started my web pages in January 2000, after I
realised the magnitude - even in this quite unreligious country - of the
effect that religion on us all (and not always to the good, as I am sure you
will agree). I suppose that we could say that I did have some sort of
revelation though. :-) Do you have a web page? If you do, perhaps we could
swap links - see http://www.oocities.org/missus_gumby/tearweep.htm
It's not a question of whether I want to be convinced or not, more a
question of can I be convinced? And without divine intervention I can't. The
other point that I am making is at near the bottom of the web page article:
"Finally I will request of anyone who prays for me that should I not 'come
to God' that they take five minutes out to examine exactly what has not
happened. That is all. Five minutes to examine the mechanics and power of
prayer, the power of faith and the existence and divine abilities of your
God."
I see that you use Pascal's Wager as a form of inducement to belief. My
reply to this, and it probably is not unique, would be to substitute the
word 'Allah' for 'God', thus:
"If there IS no Allah, then you lose absolutely nothing by figuring, what
the
hay, I'll just assume there IS, and conduct myself accordingly. The worst
that can possibly happen is that when I die, I get obliterated and then I'd
never know if I was right or wrong!
if there IS an Allah, and I DON'T receive Him as my Saviour, then there's a
much heavier price to pay than the one the Son did on my behalf.. Because
"hell" simply is ETERNAL SEPARATION FROM LOVE."
Which begs the question: Why are you not a Muslim? Also, I think that the
Bible is quite clear that 'hell' is not 'eternal separation from love', but
an actual place of fire and torment. Here are a few of several Bible
passages which support me:
Matt 5:22 "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother
without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say
to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall
say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." - Jesus speaking
Matt 13:42 "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be
wailing and gnashing of teeth." - Jesus speaking
Matt 3:12 "Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor,
and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with
unquenchable fire." -John the baptist speaking
Mark 9:43 "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to
enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire
that never shall be quenched" - Jesus speaking
As an Athiest, I don't accept that 'hell' exists in reality. But on the
other hand I do accept that the threat of 'hell' exists in the Bible.
In your last email to me you label God as being male. Surely the Christian
God can neither be male or female. God must be an IT. And my reasoning?
Gender only exists where there is sexual reproduction. As a monotheist, you
cannot belive that a Missus_God exists as well, or am I wrong?
Er, <name deleted>, we both seem to have gone 'off topic' here! You are very naughty
tempting me like this.:-) But may I ask you a question anyway?
The universe is massive (I bet we agree on that one!), some 50 billion
galaxies each containing around 200 billion stars. Do you really believe
that God, the creator of the universe, actually delights in the smell of a
burnt goat?
I have had a go at the prayer today (a couple of times in fact) but nothing
has happened. I will keep praying, and hope that you do too.
See you later
Martin J Burn - an English Atheist
PS <deleted>
But no answers.
well, you ARE hilarious. I knew it would be fun to banter.<deleted>
I usually speak more allegorically than literally; hence my
usage of the phrase "hell is eternal separation from love."
God, according to James 4:8, IS love, although to be fair, I can
certainly - if sadly - understand why many wouldn't think that
"eternal separation from God" is such a bad thing, considering
the violence inherent in the OT, at the hands of this fierce
Deity, Who just happens to be my Heavenly Father, whether I like
it or not... (and sometimes I don't!)
>Greetings from rainy England!
>
>Thank you for your email. Help! It seems as though you are, by far, more
>educated and adept in religion and religious debate than myself, but I will
>try to keep up.
Yuck, yuck and double-yuck. I HATE that word! ('religion'). It's
total mind-control. The churches,for the most part, are corrupt
anyway, so I never put my confidence in systems designed
(quietly) to corral as many uninformed as possible. The most
insidious factor is that SINCE it's "THE CHURCH", the "good
little Christians" can't find the voice to say 'hey, I'm not
going!'
This is the kind of follower who has bought into the
pseudo-evangelical trip that ultimately will cost everything.
Compare that to when I used that wager; that one might as well
believe since there's nothing to lose.
Well... there are too many nutbars around, claiming to be
preaching the truth, but the focus is on religion!! a typical
sermon seems bent on retaining its congregation's allegiance to
THAT faction, rather than the reason that people ought to get
together; I always thought church was supposed to be for
enjoying the companionship of like-minded souls. Instead it's
become some kind of war camp.
This I openly despise.
>I only started my web pages in January 2000, after I
>realised the magnitude - even in this quite unreligious country - of the
>effect that religion on us all (and not always to the good, as I am sure you
>will agree).
I most definitely agree. It's become a shambles. All the black
sheep are angrily glaring at the one white sheep.
>I suppose that we could say that I did have some sort of
>revelation though. :-) Do you have a web page? If you do, perhaps we could
>swap links - see >http://www.oocities.org/missus_gumby/tearweep.htm
sure - here's mine.
<deleted>
(exactly as it appears)
>It's not a question of whether I want to be convinced or not, more a
>question of can I be convinced? And without divine intervention I can't.
You're correct on this; without the power of the Holy Spirit
(Who exists even if the tree fell in the forest regardless of no
one being round to hear it), you can't be. However; this is not
to say God is UNABLE to save, but whether He is willing.
Hmmmmm. That wants a verse. I've been more in tune with Him
lately...
Romans 9:16 - So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of
him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
As to why I say 'HE'? well, for beginners I'm not some
Femi-Nazi who has to battle every single instance of the
remotest hint of bias in men's favour..
and, simply stated, God is my Father, and Jesus is the Son, tho'
in all honesty I often wondered about the Holy Spirit, until I
saw this:
(it also helped me a lot with the subject of the Triune God when I was
researching some ex-Jehovah's Witness literature;)
1 ¶ And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat
in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and
when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself
toward the ground,
3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not
away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest
yourselves under the tree:
5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after
that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they
said, So do, as thou hast said.
6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready
quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the
hearth.
7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and
gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.
8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set
it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
9 ¶ And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold,
in the tent.
10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of
life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the
tent door, which was behind him.
11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased
to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old
shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
13 And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying,
Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return
unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
__________________________
I know that's kind of a big hulk of scripture, but it got my
attention because it seems very pointed about the 3 men being
God.
also that God can do anything, .. even turn the path of a ruddy
atheist like you! :D
>The
>other point that I am making is at near the bottom of the web page article:
>
>"Finally I will request of anyone who prays for me that should I not 'come
>to God' that they take five minutes out to examine exactly what has not
>happened. That is all. Five minutes to examine the mechanics and power of
>prayer, the power of faith and the existence and divine abilities of your
>God."
again, to counter the inferrence of lack on God's part; at the
foot of the cross, there were people jeering at Jesus, mocking
Him.
"Luke 23:37 - And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews,
save thyself."
The Son of God was perfectly capable of freeing Himself, but He
chose to give His life.
There was also this incident:
Luke 4:12 - And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said,
Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Lu 4:2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat
nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.
Mt 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down:
for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in
their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot
against a stone.
>I see that you use Pascal's Wager as a form of inducement to belief. My
>reply to this, and it probably is not unique, would be to substitute the
>word 'Allah' for 'God', thus:
>
>"If there IS no Allah, then you lose absolutely nothing by figuring, what
>the
>hay, I'll just assume there IS, and conduct myself accordingly. The worst
>that can possibly happen is that when I die, I get obliterated and then I'd
>never know if I was right or wrong!
>if there IS an Allah, and I DON'T receive Him as my Saviour, then there's a
>much heavier price to pay than the one the Son did on my behalf.. Because
>"hell" simply is ETERNAL SEPARATION FROM LOVE."
>
>Which begs the question: Why are you not a Muslim?
Well, Allah was about to call me, but Jesus beat him to it. :)
>Also, I think that the
>Bible is quite clear that 'hell' is not 'eternal separation from love', but
>an actual place of fire and torment. Here are a few of several Bible
>passages which support me:
and I don't dispute them. As I say, I was being figurative. But
in the horror for those who find out the hard way, being
eternally separated from God would be about as pleasant as being
flambe'd alive.
On that notion, I'll mention also that I as one true-blue
believer am NOT following Jesus out of a fear of what would
happen to me if I didn't. I follow Him because I want to. I
have a friendship with God. For the unassociated, I need to
pray when a soul's identity is shown to me. I don't randomly
blurt out a bunch of "halleluias" and "I just pray that..."
When I pray for a person, it's for a reason. Otherwise it's like
tossing ALL my fishing bait into the lake, hoping one of them
will suddenly, happily flop into the boat!
>
>Matt 5:22 "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother
>without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say
>to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall
>say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." - Jesus speaking
>
>Matt 13:42 "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be
>wailing and gnashing of teeth." - Jesus speaking
>
>Matt 3:12 "Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor,
>and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with
>unquenchable fire." -John the baptist speaking
>
>Mark 9:43 "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to
>enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire
>that never shall be quenched" - Jesus speaking
>
>As an Athiest, I don't accept that 'hell' exists in reality. But on the
>other hand I do accept that the threat of 'hell' exists in the Bible.
>
>In your last email to me you label God as being male. Surely the Christian
>God can neither be male or female. God must be an IT. And my reasoning?
>Gender only exists where there is sexual reproduction. As a monotheist, you
>cannot belive that a Missus_God exists as well, or am I wrong?
Nope, you're not wrong. I don't buy into the Missus_God theory.
>Er, <snip>, we both seem to have gone 'off topic' here! You are very naughty
>tempting me like this.:-) But may I ask you a question anyway?
>
>The universe is massive (I bet we agree on that one!), some 50 billions
>galaxies each containing around 200 billion stars.
and I don't even believe that OURS is the only
intelligently-inhabited planet.
Do you really believe
>that God, the creator of the universe, actually delights in the smell of a
>burnt goat?
God adores this even less:
Isaiah 64:6 - But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our
righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a
leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
If there is no hell, then Jesus sure went to a whole lot of
trouble, humiliation, pain and frustration for nothing! ... to
save us from .. ?? .. ? what?
>I have had a go at the prayer today (a couple of times in fact) but nothing
>has happened. I will keep praying, and hope that you do too.
You know I will, and I'm not the only one.
You've become very popular in the last few days; <big snipped chunk>
>See you later
>
>Martin J Burn - an English Atheist
>
<snipped chunk>
Moving right on...
Hello <deleted>,
<deleted>
You are doing it again! :-) You really should <snip> be a
politician, you would be brilliant. <snip> politicians have an almost
hypnotic way of never answering the questions posed to them. That, and
totally sidestepping the subject in question.
As you can imagine I now have several good folk praying for me to become a
Christian by the power of prayer and divine intervention. And if I am to
reply to the more rational ones I fear that I must keep our conflab quite
succinct. I also have a life outside of email debate, and as it is my
birthday I will be popping down to the pub for a pint or two this evening.
If you look at the photos on my web page you will notice that I am a tubby,
middle-aged man who likes to eat junk food. And partake of a beer flavoured
beverage once in a while.
In your latest email you have posed no questions. Therefore I will just move
right on...
I am happy to read that you agree with me as to the debilitating nature of
religion in general. I doubt if any Christian on this planet is proud of
their religions' more barbaric episodes. And it is of some sadness to me
that this tradition is still being upheld even today - Northern Ireland and
Uganda being two cases that spring easily to mind.
I asked why you were not a Muslim, based on the fact that you used Pascal's
Wager as an inducement to faith. But you did not answer me. :-( I am sure
that you are aware that your choice of faith is geographically based, and I
put it to you again, why are you not a Muslim. Or a Hindu? Why do you not
worship the Easter Island statue Gods? Why do you not believe that Osiris,
Bacchus, Mithra, Hermes, Buddha, Quelzalcoatle, Prometheus, Zoroaster,
Perseus, Codom Lao-tsze Fo-hi are real, living gods? (All of which, we are
told, had gods for fathers and all their mothers were virgins.)
I have no problem with you following the teachings of the Biblical character
Jesus without the hellfire and torment coercion. Nevertheless I think that
we may agree that 'hell' as taught by Jesus IS a place of hellfire and
eternal torment - which may exclude the lack of Godly love. After all, that
is what is written in the Bible. Do you agree that at least in the instances
that I quoted, Jesus (and John the Baptist) uses threats to coerce his
following?
You did not answer the burnt goat thing. :-( The point I was making, was to
contrast a being that created something of cosmic proportions as opposed to
petty minded, human writings. I ask you again, does your God really delight
in the smell of a burnt goat? It's near the beginning of Leviticus.
There are now quite a few folks praying to their supreme being for me to
'come to God'. I have not noticed anything happening yet. Hey, I have become
popular, I never expected that.
I have taken a very quick look at your web site, it is very professional
(unlike mine!). <deleted>
I have written far more than I should have. Doh. <snip!>
Keep praying.
Toodle Pip and cheers
Martin J Burn - an English Atheist
Chuff me, I wrote too much again.
And finally, the realisation.
"Do you agree that at least in the
instances
that I quoted, Jesus (and John the Baptist) uses
threats to coerce his
following?"
Yes I do agree that said those things.. However, I
don't view them as "threats" in the way that would
imply manipulation; they were warnings of said
consequences.
If I told you "if you don't get off the highway right
now, that huge truck barrelling towards you WILL hit
and very possibly kill you.", is that my trying to
make you do something I want you to (get off the road
just because I don't like people blocking my view of
the pavement) by using scare tactic?
Or, is the campaign against smoking only intended to
control others for someone's personal power agenda, or
is it that using tobacco products IS dangerous?
Jesus and John were warning the people what WOULD
happen if they continued down their chosen roads
instead of paying attention and smartening up.
___
Though you're using humour to express yourself, I'm
picking up an irritation which, based on what you've
repeatedly tried to get from me and have not been
answered to your satisfaction, may be a reason for me
to back off and simply restate that I believe you, a
sane individual, would certainly have more important
things to do than idly challenge Christians to prove
that God exists - as if you were doing US a favour?
In all honesty, Martin, I would rather not be involved
in such a time-waster. If you're not interested in
being a believer, that's fine, I wouldn't presume to
impose you on my Lord.
But if somewhere in you is the remotest desire to
actually find a faith in Jesus, then I'll be more than
happy to offer friendship.
I don't have your answer. All I DO know is Who DOES.
From here on in, if you want to know God, ASK GOD.
and just for the record, YOU'RE a RELIGIOUS FANATIC
TOO; look at how determined you are to RESIST!!
So would you mind if I drop you off here? However, I'm
still praying for you, and so are my friends.
<deleted>
Politician indeed! I'll admit here that I really
didn't truly understand; I thought you were a seeker.
It seems you're just being Devil's advocate for lack
of anything more constructive to do.
=====
_____________________________________________
EVERYBODY generalizes. Except me. I never do.
________________________________________________
And it stopped there. I did not reply to the last email. I doubt that a reply would have received too much attention. But what could I have written as a response? Let's see...
Dear <deleted>,
Sure, if you told me a truck was going to kill me I would get out of the way. And pretty quick too. That's because trucks exist. It's not a scare tactic or threat, the warning in that case is the action of a sane, rational, logical person. It's an honest, compassionate warning. Smoking is dangerous - people die of cancer. I smoke, I might die of cancer. Telling me those things is good. (However, even though telling me that smoking is bad, the proponents of an anti-smoking campaign may also have a political agenda, which I won't address because I hardly ever discuss politics.) But telling me that if I don't do this or don't do that, for whatever reason, or I will suffer eternal hellfire and torment is a threat. If I use your example, here's how it looks: "Martin, get out of the way there's a truck coming! Oh, and by the way, if you don't you'll die then fry in hell for the next billion, billion years". Like it or not, The character of Jesus as portrayed in the Christian Bible uses the threat of 'hell' as eternal punishment.Which is a bad thing. There are other examples in the New Testament of an equally despicable nature of the teachings of the character Jesus, but I suppose you would put your own spin on those as well. Which is a partial denial of your own faith. And a sin.
Thanks for calling me sane. I have no argument with that! You may have noticed that on my Why I am an Atheist page I put forward that anyone who believes in a great big, invisible, space alien, creator god, is somewhat mentally ill. I'll stick with that, but it's only a personal opinion. You went on and shot yourself in the foot - would not the proof of a divine being be the biggest thing, be the most important thing ever to be known? It is not an idle challenge, it is an honest challenge. And not only would the proof of a divine being be doing Christians a favour, it would be doing the whole planet a favour. It would be doing me a favour, heck, were it proved I'd be up there praying and praising, begging for forgivness, calling myself a sinner, repenting and all the other stuff to stop myself going to hell. But you know as well as I do that in the real world prayers have never been answered, not in reality, not in any provable way, and not outside the writings in the Bible or any other 'Holy' book. Would not the proof of the power of prayer be fantastic? I think that it would.
You write that you would "rather not be involved in such a time-waster". I don't think I ever said that I wanted to become a believer. It is a pity that you are not able to offer the hand of friendship to someone who doesn't have the desire to have faith in a Biblical character. To me that is not a very Christian attitude, but not unexpected considering the history of Christianity and religion in general. You will forgive me if I don't create a false personal desire to have a 'faith in Jesus' to achieve your friendship. I only ever have honest friendships. They are the best kind by far.
Hey, you tried a little bit of childish mud slinging! I'll join in - I'm a big kid at heart. You called me a religious fanatic, in UPPER CASE no less. Well, I'm going to call you an Atheist. YOU ARE AN ATHEIST! After all, you only believe in one more god than me. Look at how determined you are to resist all the other gods. And what's more you have only been a full no-god type of Atheist a few years less than me. WE WERE BOTH ATHEISTS WHEN WE WERE BORN. We were both Atheists until we were both TAUGHT OTHERWISE.
No, I wouldn't mind if you drop me off here. Trying to get an coherant answer out of you was like banging my head against a brick wall - it's quite nice when it stops. I am glad that you and all your friends are still praying for me though. It is a major source of hilarity in my life at the moment. Just think about it:
1.A personal, Atheist web site that has a go at ridiculing religion - a site that pokes fun at unsubstansiated belief.
2. A request to convert the Atheist writer to religious belief by the power of prayer and divine intervention.
3. Several respondees prove their gullability by writing back and confirming that they are praying for me.
I am so happy that I have those people, from all over the place, engaged in prayer. It is hilarious. There was even one respondee who provided a long list of her friends who were praying for me, and they probably still are. (Excuse me whilst I wipe some tears of laughter from my eyes.) That I have managed to get people engaged in such a demonstrably futile pursuit, on my behalf, amuses me no end. It even made my sister laugh - and even she goes to church on occasion!
In parting I would ask you to consider what has happened here. Why did you pursuade yourself that I wanted to become a Christian? And maybe apply that thought to the point in time where you pursuaded yourself to believe in an invisible, universe sized space-alien. Why couldn't you provide the correct method for prayer? I'll tell you - your explanation could only have been ludicrous, so you deliberately chose not to. You deliberately didn't answer the question about knowing the difference between the voice of God, and the voice of the Devil pretending to be God. Oh yes, 'Devil's advocate', the presence of a devil's advocate presupposes that both sides agree in the first instance, with one side posing an opposing view for (hopefully) the sake of constructive argument. I was never a devil's advocate, I have no belief in anything supernatural. Lack of anything more constructive to do? If trying to help the deluded is not being constructive then you have a good point, and I plead guilty as charged. I could go on addressing all the points I raised which were not answered, but I won't. You are in luck. So keep praying for me, pray hard and pray long, and consider what is not happening and why it will never happen. If nothing else has been achieved you are at least going to provide this writer with a laugh or two every day for years to come. Thanks - it has been, and will continue to be fun.
Take care
Martin J Burn - an English Atheist
"Never give a sucker an even break" - W.C.Fields
Ooer... What is happening? I think that I am going to become... a....Chr...issschoooooooo!... nope - it was only a sneeze.
© Copyright 2000 Martin J Burn - The English Atheist