Middle Kingdom - Internal Letter of Acceptances & Returns – October 2002 

This is the October 2002 Middle Kingdom Letter of Acceptances and Returns for Keythong’s August Letters. Unless otherwise noted, all clients will accept changes. {Comments in braces {} were removed from the Letter of Intent sent to Laurel and the College of Arms. Names, devices, or badges in braces have been returned or pended; general comments or replies to commentary are also placed in braces. Thanks to Aryanhwy merch Catmael, Athenais Bryennissa, Pendar the Bard, Knut, and Jaelle of Armida for their commentary this month.} 

 

{*) Caradoc da Firenze. New Name.

Caradoc was documented by the client from Withycombe (58) who has it as an undated English version of a Welsh name. Common in the Middle Ages. There are two issues with the name. The first is that the given name is probably Caradog, Cradog, or Craddog in period Welsh. The second problem is more serious: there is little indication that the Welsh and the Italians had significant interaction in period. Without an indication of such interaction, it is not possible to register a combination of Welsh and Italian names.}  

Name Commentary

Pendar: When citing references, please use full citations. Instead of writing "The client cites E. G. Withycombe for the name Caradoc" please write "Caradoc is found in Withycombe, page 58, where it is said to be a favorite Christian name in Wales, dated to -" In this case, no dates were provided, but the fact that it is Welsh is important when determining whether it is a viable combination with an Italian surname. Hanks and Hodges is an abyssmal resource and should be avoided. See the list of resources to avoid at http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/admin.html#APPENDIX_F As it so happens, in this case H&H is correct. The Italian name for Florence is <Firenze>.  Latin forms of the name preserved the original <Flor-> spelling, but not Italian forms. So "di Firenze" is correct. Combining a Welsh given name with an Italian locative byname make no sense at all to me, but is not specifically listed in Laurel's chart of culture combinations from the Cover Letter of the January LoAR: http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/2002/01/02-01cl.html I don't think anybody has tried it before. You could send it up just to set the precedent. :) 

Ary: Is the client submitting <Caradoc Firenze> or <Caradoc di Firenze>?  It is not apparent from the heading.  Simply citing sources without giving page number and dates is not documentation.

According to S. Gabriel report #2386 (www.s-gabriel.org/2386), the given name was usually found "as <Caradog>, <Cradog>, or <Craddog> during the Middle Ages.  Beginning with the thirteenth century, we find only forms that start with <Crad->, so <Cradog> would be the best choice for the father of a man living in 1400. [5, 6]"  The sources are [5] Heather Rose Jones (aka Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn), "Names and Naming Practices in the Anglesey Submissions of 1406", in "Y amamseriad" issue 4, Summer, 1996. and [6] T.J. Morgan and Prys Morgan, _Welsh Surnames_ (Cardiff: University of Wales Press, 1985). s.n. Craddog.

<di> is the wrong preposition for Italian locative bynames.  The appropriate form of the surname would be <da Firenze>.  :From the draft precedents of Francois: "[di Ferrara] ... da is used with a placename in Italian, not di.

[Camilla Fante da Ferrara, 08/01, A-Meridies]" and "... the particle used with placenames in Italian is da, not di. [Massaria da Cortona, 11/01, A-Lochac]"

However, there is no evidence that Welsh/Italian names are acceptable.  Without evidence of regular contact between the Welsh and Italian, this is not registerable. 

Athenias: <Caradoc> is a Welsh given name, and <Firenze> is Italian. I don=t see any precedents regarding this mix, but I do note that Welsh + German is an unregisterable combination, and I doubt that Welsh + Italian is any more plausible.

When using a placename in Italian, da is used, as in Leonardo da Vinci. (JoA, LoAR December 1998, p. 3)  

 

{*) Clare Agatha MacLeod. Change of Registered Device. Per pale sable and argent lilies of the valley within a bordure counterchanged.

{Name reg’d 7/97}

This is being returned for redrawing. As drawn, it is more of a lily of the valley plant. Previous registrations of the lily of the valley have been depicted more simply as a single sprig instead of the entire plant. We would propose that the client redraw it along those lines, while being careful to draw it beefy enough that it survives the field division clear enough to still be recognizable. Another option is to display the plant in a period fashion and we are supplying the client with a depiction of the Lily of the Valley plant from Gerard’s Herbal.} 

Device Commentary

Knut: Per pale sable and argent, a lily of the valley plant within a bordure counterchanged Lilies of the valley usually have multiple sprigs of blooms on a single plant and this is drawn as a single plant with all the sprigs and leaves coming from a single point. Clear 

Pendar: Let me begin by saying that I found no conflicts through March 2002. That was the easy part as it only required a complex search using the criteria "Per pale sable and argent" and "counterchanged" at 50% each. The only plant-like object in the list was a thistle. As to this plant itself, lilies of the valley are a well established heraldic charge that have been registered several times before as recently as July 2001. The difficulty here is in describing this particular arrangement. My best guess is "in fess four slips of lilies of the valley conjoined in base, leaved, counterchanged." But that won't account for the odd curved manner in which they are drawn. From RfS VIII.1.b: "Designs that are unbalanced, or that create an impression of motion, are not compatible with period style." And RfS VIII.4.c: "Natural Depiction -- Excessively naturalistic use of otherwise acceptable charges may not be registered." Still, if this were reduced to one straight slip it might be returned for counterchanging a long skinny object along its axis. I say "When in doubt, send it to Laurel." 

Ary: Her name was registered 07/97.  Her current device, "Or, three dolphins haurient gules, a bordure nebuly sable," was registered at the same time.  Therefore, this submission is not a *new device*, it is a *device change*.  I find the lily of the valley highly naturalistic and nearly unidentifiable.  Do we have evidence that the lily of the valley is a period breed? 

Athenias: I would call this a lily of the valley plant for simplicity=s sake. However, the plant looks distinctly naturalistic and very unheraldic the way that it=s drawn. I=m not certain that this isn=t in need of a redraw. No conflicts found. 

 

1) John Chandler. New Device. Purpure, a chevron debased and in chief a candle fesswise argent.

{Name reg’d 12/01} 

Device Commentary

Knut: Although a charge in chief forces a chevron to be abased, this went farther than it needed to. Clear. 

Pendar: The fact that the chevron is placed low on the field is worth blazoning because he will likely get an additional CD for placement on the field as there is nothing about the tincture of the field or arrangement of charges that would force the chevron to move this low on the field. Blazon-fu: "Purpure, a chevron abased and in chief a candle fesswise argent." No conflicts found through 3/02. 

Ary: His name was registered 12/01.  The client has had a number of previous submissions:

#1: "Purpure, a bend argent" was returned by RS 08/01 for conflict

#2: "Purpure, a bend cotised argent" was returned by RS 12/01 for conflict

#3: "Purpure, a chevron argent" was returned by RS 06/02 for conflict.

The chevron drawn here is a little low, but more problematic is the candle; I have my doubts about its identifiability, especially turned on its side as it is. 

Athenias: The chevron is drawn low enough that it is actually a chevron debased. No conflicts found.

[A chevron inverted debased] The chevron inverted is definitely debased, so much that the fact must be blazoned; but no evidence has been presented chevrons (inverted or not) were blazoned or drawn "debased" in period. (Charles of the Painted Glen, November, 1992, pg. 15) 

 

 

2) Sol Tizona. {called Rayya.} New Name. {and Device Argent, a sun sable.}

The client submitted the name as “Sol Tizona, called Rayya” but as we don’t register names of the pattern “X called Y,” we have opted to drop the nickname. {The client is welcome to submit it later as part of an alternate name.}

Sol is a given name found in Camacho, “Vida y Presencia de la Mujer en la Cordoba del Siglo XIII” in Las Mujeres en las Ciudades Medievales (138) which has a list of given names and how often they were found. Sol is found ten times. Sol is also found in Scott, “A Glossary of the Personal Names in Diez Melcons Apellidos Catellano-Leoneses” in the Middle KWHS Proceedings (1993), which dates it four times between 1082 and 1173. Tizona (meaning charcoal) is dated to 1164 in Kremer, “Bemerkungen zu den mittelalterlichen hispanischen cognomina” in Aufsätze zur Portugiesischen Kulturgescheichte [which appears to be somewhere in Volumes 10, 11,12,13,14,16, 17 and somehow related to] Sonderdruck aus Portugiesische Forschungen der Görresgesellschaft. Herausgegeben von Hans Flasche (III: 27) – the original cite is found in St Gabriel Letter #1523. The Gabriel letter, in fact, suggests this exact combination of name elements, noting, “The woman in our example, <Sol Peleaz>, could also have been known as <Sol Negra> or <Sol Tizona>.” The client is interested in registering an early 12^th century Mozarabe (Christian in Moslem Spain) name and the meaning of Tizona as being “dark” or “charcoal/obscured sun.”

{To the internal commentators: Rayya is actually documented by the client from Compleat Anachronist #51, although the ILoI did not mention this fact.}

{The device is being returned for multiple conflicts including the following:

Ian of Nightsgate (Argent, a sun between a fret of four swords sable) [1/90]. There is one difference for the removal of the swords.

Alison MacLeod (Argent, a sun in his splendor within an orle of mullets sable) [12/00]. There is one difference for the removal of the mullets.

Corvus Blackthorne (Argent, a sun sable within a bordure counter-compony argent and sable) [10/91]. There is one difference for the removal of the bordure.

Friedrich von Rabenstein (Argent, a sun, in chief a sword fesswise sable) [4/94]. There is one difference for the removal of the sword.

Theo of Mightrinwood (Purpure, a sun of eight wavy rays sable, fimbriated Or) [11/79]. There is one difference for the change to the field.

There were several other conflicts as well, but these were the most obvious ones. We suggest a complete redesign.}

{Pendar: I don’t actually read NS-Heralds for commentary, so your referral to it won’t help me much. If there is something on a listserv that you want me to see, please include it in your actual LoC. Thanks!} 

Name Commentary

Pendar: I had a client in the Outlands who wanted the name Mariasol. She asked the College of Saint Gabriel for help. Part of their reply to her was: "We found a 12th century example of "Sol" as a given name [6], and it continues in use in present-day Spain. It is therefore reasonable to assume that it was in rare use throughout our period... [6] El Cid, any edition. Online, see" St. Gabriel report # 719. The SCA has not registered names of the "<given name> <surname>, called <other name>" variety since 1981. She could register an alternate persona name of Rayah. It can likely be tracked down with a little research as "Rayah bint Yousef" was registered in February of 1991 via the East. 

Ary: <Sol> is dated to 1082 and 1173 as a Castilian name in Talan Gwynek, "A Glossary of the Personal Names in Diez Melcon's _Apellidos Castellano-Leoneses_", Known World Heraldic Symposium Proceedings (SCA: Chicago, 1993).  It is also found in S. Gabriel report 1523 (www.s-gabriel.org/1523), which also has an example of <Maria Tizona> from 1164.  (The reference is Kremer, Dieter.  'Bemerkungen zu den mittelalterlichen hispanischen cognomina', in _Aufsa"tze zur Portugiesischen Kulturgeschichte_, vols. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16, 17.  Sonderdruck aus Portugiesische Forschungen der Go"rresgesellschaft. Herausgegeben von Hans Flasche (Mu"nster: Aschendorffsche Verlagsbuchhandlung, 1970-1981/82), III.27.)

Concerning the latter part of her name (which is undocumented on the LoI), from the precedents of Jaelle, I find this: "[Arianwen Teague] Submitted as Arianwen Teague called Seeker, as noted in the LoI, Madeleine Moinet dit Boismenu's name was registered because 'called' is a legitimate documentary form in Latin, German and French. The name submitted here is none of those languages. The commentary ... also shows 'called' names as, for want of a better term, proper aliases (John Smith called John Doe called Richard Roe) rather than common nouns (John Smith called Bandit called Fellow). "Seeker" doesn't fit into these parameters. ["called Seeker" was deleted] (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR February 1998, p. 6)"

Going a little farther back is the following precedent from Wilhelm: "I have omitted the words "called N." The College of Arms is only interested in registering the formal Society name of a person. We are not interested in nicknames and do not register them. To do so would be to give official approval for the use of a nickname, which is a separate name in itself. N. is called M., which means that he is addressed at times as "M." A person may have many nicknames, but these do not belong in the formal name unless they are to become a fixed part of the name itself. One's formal Society name is a complete unit. This is what will be used for scrolls and other official uses. One's nickname is what can be used by acquaintances in informal usage. Therefore the forms "called X" or "known as X" may not appear in a name submitted to the College. It is nice to have them in the file, which is why there is a line for them [on] the form, but they are not a part of the formal name. WVS [25] [LoAR 16 Sep 80], p. 4"

Jaelle's precedent does not supercede this one.  We need here both evidence that <Rayya> is a given name, and that such patterns of <X dit Y> or <X called Y> were used in Muslim Spain (evidence that it was used in Latin, German, and French is not sufficient).  It is interesting to note that the most recent registration of a name using the English "called" is from 1980.  <Rayya> is found as a feminine name in Da'ud's "Arabic Naming Practices And Period Names List" (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/daud/arabic-naming/).  It is not listed in Juliana de Luna's "Andalusian Names: Arabs in Spain" (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/andalusia/).  Without evidence that either this name or this construction was used in Spain, it would be better to drop the entire phrase, in keeping with the client's request for an authentic name. 

Athenias: No documentation for Rayya was given in the ILoI. The use of AX called Y@ has long been banned, excepting certain languages, of which Spanish is not one:

While this name violates the long-standing prohibition against names of the form X called Y, in the early records it is quite common to find people recorded as X cognomento Y or, later, X dictus Y, X genannt Y, etc. These are official documentary forms no different in principle from X filius Y; like filius Y, dictus Y serves to specify which X is in question. In Latin, German, and French it is a legitimate documentary form. Therefore, since names of this sort are documented we are hereby overturning this ban for those languages. (JoA, LoAR July 1996, p. 7)

The Anickname@ will need to be dropped from this name. 

Device Commentary

Knut: Vyvyan Broussard - April of 1996 (via Atlantia): Argent goutty de larmes, a sun in its splendor sable. Ian of Nightsgate - January of 1990 (via the Outlands): Argent, a sun between a fret of four swords sable. Alison MacLeod - December of 2000 (via Atlantia): Argent, a sun in his splendor within an orle of mullets sable. Corvus Blackthorne - October of 1991 (via the East): Argent, a sun sable within a bordure counter-compony argent and sable. Friedrich von Rabenstein - April of 1994 (via Caid): Argent, a sun, in chief a sword fesswise sable. The previous five devices all have a single CD for adding a secondary group.

Theo of Mightrinwood - November of 1979 (via Atenveldt): Purpure, a sun of eight wavy rays sable, fimbriated Or. Craig of the Glyn - September of 1990 (via Caid): Gyronny gules and Or, a compass star sable. Single CD for field.

Tiriel Benn Loring - 1980 (via the West): Argent, a mullet of seven points purpure. Single CD for primary tincture

Return for multiple conflicts 

Pendar: The conflicts for the device have already been discussed on the ns-heralds listserv. 

Ary: The device has a number of conflicts: Vyvyan Broussard The following device associated with this name was registered in April of 1996 (via Atlantia): Argent goutty de larmes, a sun in its splendor sable. - One CD for the gouttes.

Ian of Nightsgate. The following device associated with this name was registered in January of 1990 (via the Outlands): Argent, a sun between a fret of four swords sable. - One CD for the swords.

Alison MacLeod The following badge associated with this name was registered in December of 2000 (via Atlantia): Argent, a sun in his splendor within an orle of mullets sable. For Muiriath ÿathach - One CD for the mullets.

Corvus Blackthorne The following device associated with this name was registered in October of 1991 (via the East): Argent, a sun sable within a bordure counter-compony argent and sable. - One CD for the bordure.

Friedrich von Rabenstein The following device associated with this name was registered in April

of 1994 (via Caid): Argent, a sun, in chief a sword fesswise sable. - One CD for the sword.

Theo of Mightrinwood The following device associated with this name was registered in November of 1979 (via Atenveldt): Purpure, a sun of eight wavy rays sable, fimbriated Or.- One CD for the field. 

Athenias: The device has several conflicts, with only one CD for removing secondary charges:

Ian of Nightsgate, Argent, a sun between a fret of four swords sable, registered 01/90 via the Outlands. Corvus Blackthorne, Argent, a sun sable within a bordure counter-compony argent and sable, registered 10/91 via the East. Friedrich von Rabenstein, Argent, a sun, in chief a sword fesswise sable, registered 04/94 via Caid. Vyvyan Broussard, Argent goutty de larmes, a sun in its splendor sable, registered 04/96 via Atlantia. Alison MacLeod, Argent, a sun in his splendor within an orle of mullets sable, registered 12/00 via Atlantia. It also conflicts with Theo of Mightrinwood, Purpure, a sun of eight wavy rays sable, fimbriated Or, registered 11/79 via Atenveldt. There is one CD for the field, and nothing for the fimbriation. 

 

2) Sol Tizona {called Rayya.} New Badge. (Fieldless) A sun sable pierced by an arrow inverted argent.

{This item will be combined with the name on the final EloI} 

Badge Commentary

Knut: (Fieldless) A sun sable, pierced by an arrow inverted argent.

...It should be noted that period arrows were drawn with grossly exaggerated heads and fletching for greater identifiability... (LoAR 1/92 p.6). Precedents Da'ud 1.2 under arrow

The arrow is poorly drawn.

... In cases where identifiability is maintained --- where one of the charges is a long, slender object, and the area of intersection small --- overall charges will still be permitted in fieldless badges. (15 January, 1992 Cover Letter (November, 1992 LoAR), pg. 3) Precedents - Bruce, under Charge - Overall

Although the arrow the arrow is long and skinny, much of it is obscured by the sun.  This combined with it's non-heraldic depiction probably violates RfS VIII.3

Clear 

Pendar: Blazon-fu: (Fieldless) A sun sable pierced by an arrow inverted argent. Arrows have their points to base by default. No conflicts found through 3/02 

Ary: This looks free of conflicts. 

Athenias: Depending on whether or not the arrow is considered large enough to be a co-primary, this badge may conflict with the same armoury as the device does, listed above. 

 

3) Ulrich Rickher. Name Correction.

{Name reg’d 3/01}

The client submitted the name Ulrich Rickers, which was corrected by Laurel to Ulrich Richker, following a citation from Brechenmacher (II: 407). However, Laurel erred in doing so, as the correct spelling found in Brechenmacher is Rickher. The client requests that his name be corrected to the period form found in Brechenmacher. We are treating this as an administrative action without a fee. 

 

Done by my hand this 14^th day of October, 

Paul Wickenden of Thanet, Rouge Scarpe 

Paul W Goldschmidt

3071 Cimarron Trail

Madison WI 53719

goldschp@mailbag.com