"The net worth of the 358 richest people in the world now equals the combined income of the poorest 2.3 billion, who comprise 45 percent of the world's population." (UNDP Choices)

Examples from the Frugal-Ed List-Server Discussion Group

See bottom for other philosophical Sept.97 links

 the: "me at the centre of 7 generations" view. 
_____________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 14:09:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: LivNLrn3R@aol.com
To: frugal-ed@listproc.wsu.edu
Subject: Re: Wanted: A definition of voluntary simplicity

Linda writes:

<< My understanding of voluntary simplicity is that it refers
 to people who could afford to be "conspicuous consumers" if they chose,
 but instead they choose to live "below their means" because they value
 living simply and not using more than their share of resources. >>

One "definition" I've seen that maybe you all have too...a life that is
outwardly simple but inwardly rich. I really like that, because it puts the
emphasis where it belongs, on who we're becoming inside, not on what our
outward trappings are like.

Becki
______________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 11:24:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Sherry Boyd 
To: frugal-ed@listproc.wsu.edu
Subject: Re: FRUGAL-ED digest 240

I'm somewhat concerned that in our attempts to be frugal we are
only looking at the trees and not the forest.  Frugal is only
truly beneficial if it does not do long range damage.  Cost in
dollars is not the only cost to be considered.

What is the affect of ammonia on the watersystem, septic tanks
etc?  Perhaps none....I hope, but I would want to know the
answer to this before pouring it into my washer.  As I would
want to know the effects of the detergent I am using and
whether other creatures of this planet were put through horrible
tortures to make sure it does burn our eyes etc.

In the same vein, What is the effect on the environment and third world workers
of doing so much shopping at WalMart rather than supporting our
local homegrown merchants who cannot purchase things in the massive
quantities for consumption necessary to sell many of them at
such low prices.  If we would consume less, perhaps we could
afford to use our dollars to convey our value systems.

I guess I am asking what we mean by "frugal".  Is this only to
benefit our own personal pocketbooks or is it an attempt to
consume less all together and to live more lightly in order
that our grandchildren's grandchildren will also have resources.


Sherry Boyd
In the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sherry Boyd				Ultimately the decision to save
CLB5Q@virginia.edu 			the environment must come from
					the human heart.
_______________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:06:29 -0700
From: Steven Garrett 
To: frugal-ed@listproc.wsu.edu
Subject: Re: FRUGAL-ED digest 240
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970613160629.0072ba34@coopext.cahe.wsu.edu>

>I guess I am asking what we mean by "frugal".  Is this only to
>benefit our own personal pocketbooks or is it an attempt to
>consume less all together and to live more lightly in order
>that our grandchildren's grandchildren will also have resources.

Sherry,
You have hit upon the main polemic of this discussion list: frugality for
lifestyle sake or less consumption of stuff for the Earth's sake. In many
ways these two drivers of frugality lead to the same end. In other cases
they do not. Take, for example, the latest HOT discussion of population.
People do not have a large family to save the Earth. They become frugal to
support their desire to raise a large family (case in point - Amy Daczyn). 

People also make transportation choices based on these two drivers. Do they
live close to work and walk or bike to work or live within public
transportation corridors to their work? Or do they live out in the the
ex-urbs, suburbs and drive in and then become frugal to support that
lifestyle choice? Or another more pointed example is that buying an old
Detroit bomber may be cheaper, but it does not help the Earth much. We all
have different drivers and I am much more on the camp of frugality for the
Earth's sake, though sometimes I will admit that we make decisions based
strictly on financial reasons.

I think that since this is an open forum - all ideas are welcome, but we
need to be vigilant to make sure that the ramifications on the Earth are
fully explored with any tip that is shared - without flaming the poster of
the message (which you did not but I thought I would add it anyway).
Steven

~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
Steven M. Garrett, M.S., R.D.		Phone:	253.798.3262
Director, Tahoma Food Sytem Project	Fax:	253.7983165
WSU Cooperative Extension		E-mail:	sgarrett@wsu.edu
3049 South 36th, Suite 300
Tacoma, WA 98409-5739
~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
________________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 10:38:47 -0600 (MDT)
From: John Charles Blouin 
To: frugal-ed@listproc.wsu.edu
Subject: Re: forward looking frugality

> Sherry Boyd
> In the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia
> 

You're very right about this forward looking frugality.  To do this
we try to be as aware of the origins of our consumables and all of 
the intervening steps (middle men) as we possibly can.  We discuss 
most purchases and when we move from one product to another we try 
to research it and discuss the pros & cons of it.  

Here are some guide lines we use:

Buy organic - Organic food tastes better and is much more healthy 
than conventional food even if it doesn't always look as pretty.  
How do we keep most of our diet organic and still save money?  Read on.

Buy local products from local vendors - Shop at farmer's markets and 
food co-ops to make a big savings on your food bill, get organically grown 
food, and keep your money in your community.  A community farm is a great 
way to go if you have one near by.  Mom and Pop shops are my next choice 
for food and misc. items.   A mom and pop shop may not always have what you 
need at the right price but in the end I'd rather pay a bit more to 
support a local business than to pay ultra discount at some giant 
(Walmart for example) that will underpay its workers in the community, 
will buy sweatshop products, and will use gouging techniques to push the 
Mom & Pop stores out of the market.  

Buy food in season -  It's almost always cheaper to buy in season food 
especially at the Co-ops and Farmer's markets.  I'd be nice to have all 
kinds of food all of the time but it's nicer to pay less and can the 
stuff.

Read the label - This is a tough one when you are buying baby clothes or 
sneakers or cheap tools etc.  My wife and I will pay double the price of 
Chinese, Mexican, etc baby shoes for a pair made in the US or Canada.  
Mary Catherine, the baby being outfit, gets most of her clothes from the 
thrift store but shoes have been scarce there and non-Chinese shoes have 
been even more scarce.

Do without - We've found that sometimes you just have to do without if your 
conscience or wallet cannot bear buying something.

Keep at it - After 2+ years of marriage AEB and I are still trying to figure 
out this consumption/conscience thing.  We make mistakes but we also make 
progress.  Every little bit that you do in this will have bearing on the life 
of your children and planet.

What do y'all do WRT this thing I call the consumption/conscience thing?  
I'd love tips or philosophical/religious reasonings for(against?) it.  Or 
even just some morale boosting stories.

Peace,

John EB
_________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 10:58:09 -0700 (MST)
From: Elaine Cubbins 
To: frugal-ed@listproc.wsu.edu
Subject: Re: FRUGAL-ED digest 240
Message-ID: 

> Or another more pointed example is that buying an old
> Detroit bomber may be cheaper, but it does not help the Earth much. We all

Hello,

I have an old Detroit bomber, a 1977 Chevy van that is kept tuned-up.  It
also is usually kept quietly resting since I rarely drive.  I am able to
use my bicycle for everything: school, work, groceries, visiting friends,
going "out".  I even use it for doing laundry because with two saddle
baskets and a front basket, i can take everything to my local laundromat,
which is in a neighboring apartment complex.  I got to know my neighbor,
the manager of the complex, and have permission to use the laundromat.

The point to this is that I am positive I use a lot less gas and have a
lot less impact on the environment with my bomber than many people with
their "economical" vehicles who drive them more than I do.  My van is used
for long distance driving, hauling stuff, and emergency trips.  Someone
once compared her gas weekly expenditure with mine (arrogant in her
fuel-efficient mindset) and we found that I spent less money in gas a
month than she does in a week, which also equals less pollution, use of
resources, dependency on a high form of technology.

Yes, what we choose to own does make a difference.  But HOW we use what we
own is also key.  Nothing is black and white, and the path to simplicity
is often rather a convoluted one.  I'm really glad to have found this list
to learn so much from all of you.

Thanks for listening, Elaine

____________________________________________________________________
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:17:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom Gray 
To: frugal-ed@listproc.wsu.edu
Subject: Re: Mortgage Payments
Message-ID: <199706141517.IAA16176@igc6.igc.org>

Excellent message by Joe Fortier, but I have one minor quibble to pick.  The
money you use paying off a mortgage is indeed accessible, through the mechanism of a home equity
loan.  It's certainly a good idea to have money set aside for emergency needs,
but this is still an option, though one I doubt I'll ever use because of the
inherent risk.

Tom
http://www.econet.org/frugal

____________________________________________________________________
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:39:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom Gray 
To: frugal-ed@listproc.wsu.edu
Subject: Re:  Frugal-Ed ~ Fiction & Simple Living
Message-ID: <199706141539.IAA16909@igc6.igc.org>

Ooooh, yes, I have a wonderful frugal living book.  Title is ISLANDIA,
by Austin Tappan Wright.  Probably out of print at the moment, but there
are many copies floating around yard sales, used book stores, and libraries,
as it is a cult favorite.  It's an anti-"progress" book, written back in
the 1920s when "progress" was king.

There are some other related titles available at the Frugal/Mindful
Living Web site in the "visions" section.

	http://www.econet.org/frugal/visions.html

It includes at least one nonfiction title as well.

Tom
http://www.econet.org/frugal

"TV: 'Next on Eyewitness Action News: Blood-spattered sidewalks 
and shroud-covered bodies!  Could the next victim be YOU??'

"TV: 'We'll get the story from the living rooms of sobbing, 
hysterical relatives and we'll tell you why YOU should be 
paralyzed with helpless fear!'

"TV: 'That's Eyewitness Action News! It's what YOU need to KNOW!'

______________________________________________________________________
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 13:07:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joe Fortier 
To: frugal-ed@listproc.wsu.edu, frugal-ed@listproc.wsu.edu
Subject: Re: FRUGAL-ED digest 240
Message-ID: <2.2.16.19970614160743.2c1f1e68@pop.igc.org>

At 11:24 AM 6/13/97 -0400, Sherry Boyd wrote:
>
>I'm somewhat concerned that in our attempts to be frugal we are
>only looking at the trees and not the forest.  Frugal is only
>truly beneficial if it does not do long range damage.  Cost in
>dollars is not the only cost to be considered.
>

Sherry,

Excellent Post, and well stated.  I was reading a chapter in "Hope, Human
and Wild" by Bill Mckibben that really struck home.  He was describing an
activist turned organic farmer in New Hampshire who said (please pardon the
paraphrasing) "I have good friends (who I have been to jail with, while
protesting the Seabrook Nuclear Power Plant) who won't pay an extra 25 cents
a pound to buy my organically grown local apples instead of those grown with
pesticides and shipped across the country."

This was a wake up call for me.  The lowest price at the checkout counter is
not necessarily the lowest price when all the external costs are factored
in.  I feel strongly that you have to back up your principles, wherever
possible, with purchasing decisions.  The lowest price often reflect the
company that succeeds in externalizing the most environmental and social
costs.  An excellent discussion of this is found in Garret Hardins "Filters
against Folly" and Daniel Korten's "When Corporations Rule the World"

A purchase at Wal Mart may be the cheapest, but Wal Marts drive out local
businesses (some estimates are that for every Wal Mart that opens, 120-150
businesses close), and send profits out of the community.  How much is
a more vital community worth??  

I buy food grown and raised using organic methods and pay 20-40% more at the
checkout.  Yet I know that my young kids are being exposed to significantly
less chemicals,and that I support local farmers that do less damage to the
earth. Pesticides build up in the soil, or leach into water tables, or
accumulate in the tissue of animals in the food chain, including humans.
Eventually, there will be a large "cost" to using these methods to produce
what seems to be cheaper foods.

The over-riding question currently asked in America today before buying is
"Can I afford it?" or "Is this the cheapest or best price?"  We need to
change this thinking so that it factors in the long term good of the
community and future generations.

One person's opinion

Joe Fortier
___________________________________________________________________

Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 19:12:14 +0000
From: Geneva or Ricardo 
To: frugal-ed@listproc.wsu.edu
Subject: Re: FRUGAL-ED digest 263
Message-ID: <33C7D709.73@pacbell.net>

Richie wrote:
> 
> "Only $$$ per month" discussion:
> 
> Caller ID to me is a luxury, but my friends who are dead broke all the
> time have this feature - it is $8.95 per month plus tax, so it is over
> $10 per month.  

Absolutely.  I am the only person in my close circle of friends who
won't spend "JUST THREE DOLLARS A MONTH" for call waiting.  This
conversation has come up again and again with people who don't
understand why I won't spend three dollars to spare them a busy signal. 
First my resonse was "that's $36 a year".  Now it's , "that's $36 a
year, TIMES the 10 years you've been bugging me about it!".  Of course,
some of them don't think $360 is a whole lot of money to spare
themselves some minor inconvenience.

Geneva

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