the "Buying food from within 200 miles" letters archive.
On the Web, you can also get these by going to: . . (most recent at top, except the
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . bottom set. They all open in a second browser window)
- [pf] 200miles
- [pf] 200 mile try
- [pf] 200 miles--Want to try it?
- [pf] 200 miles--Want to try it? (fwd)
- [pf] 200 miles/garden/yield data
- [pf] 200 miles & ideas on growing your own complete diet
- [pf] 200miles
- Diane Wills Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:54:21 -0800 (PST)
- Ronald Hands Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:57:03 -0500
- Arnie P. Anfinson Fri, 19 Mar 1999 18:41:09 -0800
- PRichter1@aol.com Fri, 19 Mar 1999 19:27:03 EST
- PRichter1@aol.com Fri, 19 Mar 1999 19:23:47 EST
- Jill Taylor Bussiere Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:53:58 -0600
- Stan King Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:35 -0800 (PST)
- Diane Fitzsimmons Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:13:04 -0600
- Betsy Barnum Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:27:20 -0600
- Jill Taylor Bussiere Sun, 14 Mar 1999 06:39:18 -0600
- Jodi Hickox Sat, 13 Mar 1999 22:55:10 -0600
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From ???@??? Sat Mar 13 06:44:27 1999
from wavetech.net (pm-3-065.dynam.WaveTech.net [206.146.145.66])
by riptide.wavetech.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA10129
for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:00:13 -0600 (CST)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:54:34 -0600
Message-ID: <36E946C9.EC5F1A7E@wavetech.net>
References: <19990312063013.GSTS4@localHost>
From: Betsy Barnum
Organization: Great River Earth Institute
To: positive-futures@igc.org
Subject: Re: [pf] Organic - what does it mean?
Jill wrote:
> > and that if it is a choice between lucrative mainstream labeling
> >that lowers the meaning of the term so that it means almost nothing, and
> >growing food healthily and sustainably, then we need to choose the latter.
And Stan King replied:
> All I'm suggesting is that there are alternatives other than the
> two you proposed (if I understand your statement correctly).
> We can have organic standards and labeling that do mean something.
[Betsy:]
We do seem to have organic standards that mean something now--with the system
that is currently in place. But it does seem, with what the USDA is continuing
to propose regarding national organic standards that would make all other
existing certification programs illegal, that it might indeed come down to
these two choices--a meaningless label that says "USDA organic" or knowing the
farmer and her practices.
After the public outcry last year, we know that, at least for now, the USDA
organic label won't include genetically tampered foods, sewage sludge on fields,
or irradiation of food. But many other objectionable practices were also
contained in the proposal, and as far as I know most of the rest of them are
still being considered. If the USDA organic label allows things like factory
farming for cattle, a certain percentage of chemicals used, non-organic feed
and antibiotics for animals, and especially if the rules continue to completely
ignore the idea of ecosystem health or caring for the land long-term, then that
label will be meaningless in my view. I would then have to rely on knowing the
local farmers and their methods to make sure my food was being grown with the
health of people and the Earth in mind.
We can have organic standards and labeling that do mean something, but only if
the USDA listens to the people who grow and eat organic food, and not to the
agribusiness corporations that want to maintain control of the food supply
their way.
> I'll restate my example: the California organic law has been
> successful in 1) defining what constitutes organic 2) giving
> food buyers the information they need to make an informed
> decision. 3) Substantially increasing the amount of pesticide/herbicide
> free food in California.
This is great for the people in California. As I understand it, there are
something like 40 or 50 different organizations and states that certify organic
food right now. California's organic law is one of the most highly-regarded
certifications around. I see it on many things that are available in the co-ops
here in Minnesota.
But if we are going to move toward regional food production and distribution,
every state or region will need its own certification or standards. A national
set of standards is, in my opinion, probably not only impossible (given how the
USDA is approaching it) but unnecessary. Food being shipped an average of 1,400 miles to our tables is a situation that simply can't continue. It's not
sustainable. In a regionally-based food system, national standards would be
irrelevant. And, I still think it's ideal for everyone, and I mean *everyone*,
in cities to have some relationship to the land and to how and where their food is grown. This is far away now, but I think it is not at all unrealistic in a
society where people grow much of their own food and get the rest from within
50-200 miles of their home.
Betsy
--
Betsy Barnum
bbarnum@wavetech.net
http://www.oocities.org/RainForest/1624
**************************************
"And I think in this empty world there was room for me and a mountain lion.
And I think in the world beyond, how easily we might spare a million or two of
humans And never miss them.
Yet what a gap in the world, the missing white frost-face of that slim yellow
mountain lion."
--D.H. Lawrence
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From ???@??? Mon Mar 15 05:44:16 1999
by pm2.124.igg-tx.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BE6DA4.B107DFE0@pm2.124.igg-tx.net>; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 22:56:12 -0600
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 22:55:10 -0600
From: Jodi Hickcox/David Williiamson
Message-ID: <01BE6DA4.B107DFE0@pm2.124.igg-tx.net>
Subject: [pf] 200miles
To: "positive-futures@igc.org"
Dear Betsy.
How can people in desert or mountainous areas get food year round from thier own 200 mile radius. I assume you mean food grown locally and prepared or preserved, canned frozen or whatever-still locally. . Are you suggesting the snowy winter states have food that only their area grows? That Michigan can't have Texas or Florida citrus fruits? ever?
I'm not sure if that sounds like a giant step backward. the beauty of living in a big nation is partly the commerce between regions, each area marketing what others dont have.
I used to live in fruit growing southern Michigan. If we couldn't sell our fruit to out of area buyers, waht would we do wiht it , let it rot? If one likes grapes ought one move to a sandy soil area and get a job there?
What do I get to eat in Houston? /Santa Fe / Chicago?
Has any one a guide to what grows where and not at all elsewhere?
I hate to say it out loud in black& white, but this 200 mile idea, to bolster sustainability, would logically have to include, shoes, cars, paper products, and what else????? Its not just food that moves more than 200 miles to reach consumers.
Kids & adults in Kentucky love the grape juice & jelly from our concord grapes.
should they not have access to it? Or do you think co-oping the processing of fruits & veggies (for the farmers profits instead of corporations) is reasonable to keep profits out of middlemans hands?
"Marionettes are everything to me; they are my mother, my world, my bank, my egg and my chick." -- Yaya Coulibaly
Jodi Hickcox
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From ???@??? Mon Mar 15 05:44:34 1999
from kc-ent-16.itol.com (kc-ent-16.itol.com [209.83.59.25])
by admin.itol.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA14030
for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 06:39:18 -0600
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 06:39:18 -0600
From: Jill Taylor Bussiere
Message-Id: <199903141239.GAA14030@admin.itol.com>
Subject: Re: [pf] 200miles
To: positive-futures@igc.org
Jodi,
I think that is the most unresolved issure of bioregionalism - does
this sustainability thing mean I can't have oranges for breakfast?
. . . Maybe we could just concentrate on getting things there in a more
sustainable way - what are the most sustainable ways of transportation? We
could just be careful with that aspect just like with everything else. So
we could get into a sustainability checklist labeling sort of process? With
eventually the label taking up the whole surface of the product.
. . . ___Paper on this label from a sustainably grown forest
. . . ___This product shipped by sustainable means
. . . ___This product grown on a sustainable farm
. . . ___This label printed with soy ink
. . . ___This product biodegradable
. . . ___etc.
Or maybe symbols for each, like the cute little irradiation symbol (just
being facetious about that).
Twenty thousand years ago, sea shells from the Peruvian coast were traded
into the North American continent - and red pigment from eastern Canada
throughout the continents, so it's not a new idea- this trading from region
to region.
. . . Jill
At 10:55 PM 3/13/99 -0600, Jodi wrote:
>Dear Betsy.
>How can people in desert or mountainous areas get food year round from
thier own 200 mile radius. I assume you mean food grown locally and prepared
or preserved, canned frozen or whatever-still locally. . Are you suggesting
the snowy winter states have food that only their area grows? That Michigan
cant have Texas or Florida citrus fruits? ever?
>I'm not sure if that sounds like a giant step backward. the beauty of
living in a big nation is partly the commerce between regions, each area
marketing what others dont have.
>I used to live in fruit growing southern Michigan. If we couldn't sell our
fruit to out of area buyers, waht would we do wiht it , let it rot? If one
likes grapes ought one move to a sandy soil area and get a job there?
>What do I get to eat in Houston? /Santa Fe / Chicago?
>Has any one a guide to what grows where and not at all elsewhere?
>I hate to say it out loud in black& white, but this 200 mile idea, to
bolster sustainability, would logically have to include, shoes, cars, paper
products, and what else????? Its not just food that moves more than 200
miles to reach consumers.
>
>Kids & adults in Kentucky love the grape juice & jelly from our concord
grapes.
>should they not have access to it? Or do you think co-oping the processing
of fruits & veggies (for the farmers profits instead of corporations) is
reasonable to keep profits out of middlemans hands?
>
>"Marionettes are everything to me; they are my mother, my world, my bank,
my egg and my chick." -- Yaya Coulibaly
>
>Jodi Hickcox
>
Jill
Wi zone 4-5
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From ???@??? Mon Mar 15 07:07:34 1999
(from gordonse@localhost) by shell.one.net (8.8.7/AD2000) id MAA32398;
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 12:52:19 -0500 (EST)
From: Sharon Gordon
Message-Id: <199903141752.MAA32398@shell.one.net>
Subject: [pf] 200 miles & ideas on growing your own complete diet
To: positive-futures@igc.org
Obtaining food from within 200 miles sounds to some people as
though it might be restricting what they can eat. If it feels
too restrictive, try setting some intermediate goals. For
instance choose a goal such as getting 50 percent of your
food from within 200 miles. Then gradually increase the
percentage. Most people will want to have a few things which are
difficult to grow in most areas. Favorite foods that come to
mind are cinnamon, coffee, tea, and chocolate.
Some people will want to grow as much of their food as possible.
Others might want to join an established CSA. Others might
want to get together with other people to hire a local
farmer to grow their family's food.
If you want to grow most or all of your food, how can you do it?
Taking your growing climate into consideration, what crops
will give you good nutrition? Which produce lots of food in
a small area? Using a nutrition book or computer program, how much
would you need of each food per day for complete nutrition?
If you like as many things as possible to be fresh, you may
want to design different gardens for different seasons to
answer this question. In this process there are two ways
of thinking for the approach to design. One is to design
a plan based on your favorite foods. Another is to design
a plan for the smallest amount of space needed to grow
a basic healthy diet in your climate. The favorite foods aren't usually
the most efficient for a particular area. Most people
combine the approaches. However I would suggest that
if you want to make a radical change in your diet, try buying
it from the grocery store for a month and see if you like it
enough to eat it consistently. It's easier to be succesful
if you start a garden that is close to your preferred current
diet and then change it over the seasons to be more efficient.
It takes time to find and try new recipes for the new combinations
of food to determine what you like.
The best way to get the most food in a given unit of land is
to grow it biointensively. In this method the plants grow in beds with
their leaves touching rather than in long rows. This shades out
weeds and makes best use of compost-fertilizer and water.
The difference in yields is quite amazing. For instance
using the regular US row methods, you can get about 10 pounds out of
100 square feet of ground. With biointensive methods a beginner
could expect 32 pounds out of the same area, and a more experienced
person about 72 pounds. With about 7 years of developing the
ground and your own skills, you could get around 108 pounds.
As an experienced gardener, I can usually get the medium levels
within the first year or two in a new garden. So far I
have rarely lived at a place long enough to get the top
yields across the board, though usually at least a few
things will do that well.
There are two main ways to create a biointensive bed.. One is to
double dig it and incorporate compost. Another is to raise it
with a good soil mix. Both ways benefit from growing fertilizer
crops to add to the soil. Both of these methods only require
a shovel, preferably a D-handled shovel. So they are low in tool use
needs.
Once you have figured out what you need to grow, calculate
how much you need of each crop to meet your nutritional needs.
Then plan when you need to start plants and transplant them
so that they will be ready at an appropriate time. Also
consider how your garden might fit into your overall yard
plan. Look at some books on permaculture to consider
as many aspects as possible for making your yard a healthy
productive climate.
When choosing varieties, consider yield, taste, disease
resistance, keeping qualities and whether the crop is ripe all at
once or spread out over time. For instance, if you want
some cucumbers for pickles and some for salads, you might
plant one type that is ready in a short period of time for pickles and
some that ripen over a long time period for eating fresh.
In some cases, you may want to plant early, midseason, and
late varieties of a crop to get this span of harvest. Cabbages
work well with this strategy and some seed companies now sell
a cabbage mix to help with this. In other cases, such as with
radishes you can stagger the initial planting.
Consider also whether you would like to grow your own seeds
rather than buying them all new each year. If so choose
open pollinated rather than hybrid varieties. (You can, however, grow
most hybrids out to a stable form of the hybrid if you would like to
experiment for several years.) One advantage to saving your
own seeds is that you develop a strain that is suited to
your area. There are organizations devoted to saving and
exchanging open pollinated heirloom seeds such as Seed
Savers Exchange(SSE). SSE has been so successful that there are
now more different op varities offered by SSE than by all the
rest of the US seed companies combined.
Once you have the basic foods growing well, consider
growing other things that you would like, perhaps your
own grapes for vinegar or wine, plants for baskets or
paper, aromatic wood for grilling, bamboo(contain it!)
for trellises or furniture and seeds to press for oil. A small plot
of medicinal herbs can meet many usual household needs.
There are people working now to get the wheat yields up to
26 pounds for 100 square feet. At this rate a person could
have a loaf of bread every week for six months from one
growing bed. Freshly ground grain in fresh bread...and
maybe some fresh oregano from your herb garden with
flecks of sundried tomatoes and fresh garlic perfuming
the bread...sounds good doesn't it?
In planning your garden time table, consider how much
you want to have fresh and how much preserved in some
way. In general the more you can have fresh, the more
nutrients you get. Also it's less work and fewer resources are used.
By having most food fresh, you also avoid those
crunch times caused by needing to preserve a large
harvest at once.
Season extenders such as cold frames are the most
efficient. Green houses and row covers help too.
Solar operated greenhouses or alpine houses use
a little more in terms of resources, but can be used
off the grid efficiently.
To preserve your harvest, solar drying is very
efficient. Canning, freezing, and root cellars
work well too. Have a back up plan if your freezer is completely
dependant on electricity from the grid though.
In addition to the benefits to your health, your finances, and the
environment from growing what you need, it's also great fun
to go out into the garden and choose ripe foods and design a
meal around them. Traditional favorites of salad, strirfry,
and soup can be made from whatever is available on a day.
But try some different things as well. Fresh corn on the
cob for breakfast is a delight. I much prefer an ear or two of
corn to a bowl of cornflakes. You may make other similar
discoveries.
Sharon
gordonse@one.net
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From ???@??? Mon Mar 15 09:30:45 1999
by shell.one.net (8.8.7/AD2000) id NAA00012 for positive-futures@igc.org; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:09:25 -0500
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:09:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Sharon Gordon
Message-Id: <199903141809.NAA00012@shell.one.net>
Subject: [pf] 200 miles/garden/yield data
To: positive-futures@igc.org
The yield data in my previous post about gardening was
for green beans:
10 pounds for regular US row methods, and 30, 72, and 108
for biointensive at improving levels of experience and
soil fertility. Usually, you can get at least 3 times the
yield at a medium level of biointensive gardening compared to
average US yields. Ten times as much as average seems to
be the top yield at the present.
Sharon
gordonse@one.net
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From ???@??? Fri Mar 19 13:27:20 1999
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:27:20 -0600
From: Betsy Barnum
Message-ID: <36F2A518.7184B3A0@wavetech.net>
Organization: Great River Earth Institute
References: <01BE6DA4.B107DFE0@pm2.124.igg-tx.net>
To: "positive-futures@igc.org"
Subject: Re: [pf] 200miles
Jodi Hickcox/David Williiamson wrote:
> How can people in desert or mountainous areas get food year round from
their own 200 mile radius. I assume you mean food grown locally and prepared
or preserved, canned frozen or whatever-still locally. Are you suggesting
the snowy winter states have food that only their area grows? That Michigan
can't have Texas or Florida citrus fruits? ever?
[Betsy Barnum:]
I'm suggesting that sustainable food production can't be achieved when food is being transported long distances as a regular practice. As a practical matter, I think this does imply that people eat food that can be produced in the region where they live.
This could well mean a significant change in diet. What Cuba has done to make itself sustainable agriculturally is a model that shows it not only is possible but that it is much better than the chemically-intensive and import/export-based food economy that we have now and that Cuba used to have. When the Soviet Union fell apart in 1989, Cuba lost its
main trading partner. It had one of the most chemical-based and high-tech farming systems in Latin America--but it could no longer get pesticides and fertilizers, gas and parts for farm machinery, nor could it sell its sugar, the main export crop. Since people could not live on sugar, it became necessary for Cuba to return to a farming system
designed to feed the people, not primarily to trade.
The people garden throughout the city, in yards, in street medians, in parks, on the grounds of schools, retirement homes and other institutions, growing vegetables and especially the root vegetables that were staple foods for centuries in Cuba. Farms, which are a mix of state-owned, privately owned and cooperative, produce all sorts of food, especially grains, dairy products and meat, using primarily organic methods.
It took several years to make the transition, and from what I've read they were lean years for most folks. Last I heard they were still rationing milk, with young children first in line. I also read that the people were unhappy about the reduction in variety and the return to basic food, few luxuries or "treats." But they had little choice, since the
U.S. embargo is still in effect, and it seems to have been a good thing in the long run. I think the experience of Cuba is a model for moving from unsustainable to sustainable agriculture.
> I'm not sure if that sounds like a giant step backward. the beauty of
living in a big nation is partly the commerce between regions, each area
marketing what others dont have.
> I used to live in fruit growing southern Michigan. If we couldn't sell
our fruit to out of area buyers, waht would we do wiht it , let it rot?
If one likes grapes ought one move to a sandy soil area and get a job there?
Sustainable agriculture does mean, I think, significant changes in both the mentality of what people expect to have available, and also in the diversity of what is produced in each region. Citrus fruits can't grow in Minnesota or Michigan, apples won't grow in Florida or south Texas. But the degree of specialization that currently exists has been
driven by the increasingly global economy, not by such limitations on where things can grow.
Regions could easily produce a much wider variety of foods than they do now, if the economy were organized that way. But not the almost endless variety that we are accustomed to having available.
Another point about locally produced food is that it is more appropriate for the climate than things that won't grow there or are out of season. The body of a person in a northern winter doesn't need lettuce and fresh strawberries. It needs potatoes, onions, rutabagas, squash for sustained energy and warmth.
> What do I get to eat in Houston? /Santa Fe / Chicago?
Desert regions are probably more limited in what they can grow. What did native people in those areas eat? What did people 100 years ago eat?
> Has any one a guide to what grows where and not at all elsewhere?
Most gardening guides worth their salt have this information.
> I hate to say it out loud in black& white, but this 200 mile idea, to
bolster sustainability, would logically have to include, shoes, cars,
paper products, and what else????? Its not just food that moves more
than 200 miles to reach consumers.
I'd say you're right. Obviously, not everything can be locally produced, but a whole lot more can be than now is. We've been deluded by the notion of "economies of scale" into thinking that small enterprises aren't competitive or economically viable. The truth is, even for things like steel manufacturing, small plants are more efficient, from what
I've heard. And every region has plenty of secondary materials--recyclables--around to keep manufacturing plants going for a long time without needing any raw materials.
Smaller size and a regional economy also means more possibilities for cooperative ownership, as well as increasing the likelihood that businesses of all sorts will be better "citizens" because they have a stake in both the ecological and social health and well-being of the community.
> Kids & adults in Kentucky love the grape juice & jelly from our concord grapes.
> should they not have access to it? Or do you think co-oping the processing of
fruits & veggies (for the farmers profits instead of corporations) is reasonable
to keep profits out of middle-mans hands?
Grapes could probably grow in Kentucky, couldn't they? If not, perhaps grape juice and grape jelly become an infrequent treat for Kentuckians, just as citrus fruits become a rare treat for people in Michigan.
It's not as bleak as all that, though. There are plenty of ways to extend growing seasons and even create microclimates for special plants like bananas. I was just looking at a booklet last night by Eliot Coleman, author of _New Organic Grower_, one of the bibles of small organic farms and market gardeners, about how he is harvesting lettuce in
December on his farm in Maine from an unheated "field tunnel"--essentially a gigantic cold frame dug into the ground. He plants in early fall, so the plants can grow while the days are still long enough for growth. Then, when daylight falls below 10 hours, the plants essentially stop growing but can be harvested and eaten fresh.
Amory and Hunter Lovins, in their mountaintop home in the Colorado Rockies, have banana and citrus trees in greenhouses that are either completely solar heated or very minimally supplemented with grid power. Methods for extending the season and even growing things way out of their zone needn't be high-tech, expensive or energy-intensive.
Personally, I find it appealing to reduce the number of choices I have for food and concentrate on eating things that are locally produced in season or preserved from the summer. I do buy broccoli once a month or so in winter, it being one of the few veggies my son will eat, and packed with nutrition. The broccoli I can buy here in March comes from
California.
I also buy grapefruit, again because my son likes it and he eats so little good food. I've almost quit buying orange juice. I buy potatoes, onions, garlic at the co-op only if they are grown in Minnesota or a neighboring state (still farther than 200 miles). I could foresee a time when I could get along without citrus fruits, except for treats, and
could eat broccoli and fresh herbs grown in a solar greenhouse. Canned tomatoes, applesauce and frozen vegetables and berries almost always run out before these things come into season again, but they make for enjoyable meals most of the winter, and increase appreciation for the fresh ones when they are in season.
Betsy
--
Betsy Barnum
bbarnum@wavetech.net
http://www.oocities.org/RainForest/1624
*****************************
One speaks of living on the earth but in truth life is held within the earth.
An atmosphere woven from life circles the planet. Every movement, every breath,
every response, the least thought is shaped to the curve of this mass. Even
time and space bend to it. Like a child in a womb, all we know exists inside
this outer body. And all is dependent on it.
--Susan Griffin, The Eros of Everyday Life, 1996
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From ???@??? Fri Mar 19 14:13:04 1999
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:13:04 -0600
From: Diane Fitzsimmons
Message-ID: <36F2AFD0.407A9E3D@pop.ou.edu>
References: <01BE6DA4.B107DFE0@pm2.124.igg-tx.net> <36F2A518.7184B3A0@wavetech.net>
To: "positive-futures@igc.org"
Subject: Re: [pf] 200miles
Betsy Barnum wrote:
> I also buy grapefruit, again because my son likes it and he eats so little
good food. I've almost quit buying orange juice. I buy potatoes, onions,
garlic at the co-op only if they are grown in Minnesota or a neighboring
state (still farther than 200 miles). I could foresee a time when I could
get along without citrus fruits, except for treats, and
> could eat broccoli and fresh herbs grown in a solar greenhouse. Canned
tomatoes, applesauce and frozen vegetables and berries almost always run
out before these things come into season again, but they make for enjoyable
meals most of the winter, and increase appreciation for the fresh ones
when they are in season.
>
[Diane:]
The talk about going to regional food markets and the changes in diet
that would necessitate reminds me of all the pioneer stories I read as a
child. What did kids get in those days for Christmas? In just about
every book I read it was an orange -- to be savored through taste,
smell, touch and sight.
Gosh, I enjoy oranges but I bet I'd enjoy them even more if they were a
rare treat. I know we who advocate simple living don't like to talk
about the d-word (deprivation) but doing without makes the doing with
that much more sweeter when you do.
I imagine many of us already practice a form of regionalizing our food
by trying to buy only in season. I don't buy winter strawberries from
Chile. Besides, I enjoy the roadside stand strawberries in the summer
so much more.
FWIW, Diane
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From ???@??? Fri Mar 19 15:56:02 1999
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:56:02 -0500
From: Sherry Boyd
Message-Id: <199903192053.PAA22320@server1.mail.virginia.edu>
To: Betsy Barnum , positive-futures@igc.org
Subject: [pf] Re: 200miles
I agree whole heartedly with Betsy. We do not have to have the variety
that we are accustomed to and we cannot continue in this fashion as we all
well know. Do we wish to wait until we are forced or make the changes
slowly bit by bit. I agree also with whomever wrote that the first thing
to do is to start eating seasonally is possible whatever is available fresh
in your area.
My family has been gardening organically for nearly 20 years. Because we
are vegetarians, we can provide about 80% of our own food and still have
one full time working person and one 2/3 time working person. We eat what
is in season and what we can preserve ourselves. Mostly during the winter
our diet consists of pastas, fresh (root cellared) potatoes, carrots,
cabbage and vegetables which we have canned and frozen. Our fruit is
whatever we have canned (peaches, apples, applesauce) or frozen
(strawberries, raspberries, blueberries) and until about April 1st we have
root cellar apples, a particular old time variety that will keep.
My parents live in Florida and send us via mail a case of oranges as our
Christmas present. We occasionally buy bananas but only as a treat,
organic ones and not Dole. We could clearly do without these. We have
found that we really look forward to those oranges and what we call orange
season which for us is when they are ripe in Florida. We are the same way
with fresh asparagus. We have not found a way to can or freeze asparagus
that we like the results and so we eat it by the ton when it comes in for
about 5 or 6 weeks and enjoy it fully. Then it is over until next year.
We look forward to the ripening of each new thing during the gardening year
and wonder how people manage to have both fresh tomatoes and fresh lettuce
at the same time without buying one from Minnesota and the other from
Georgia. For us, it is far too hot for lettuce by the time the tomatoes
ripen up. Is the combination of lettuce salad with sliced tomatoes a post
world war II phenomenon or just not possible in my neck of the woods?
We do not have a green house but would really like to as our biggest "loss"
most of the year is fresh lettuce for salads. It seems it is either too
hot to grow it or too cold. So for salads, we use cabbage mostly. We can
lettuce fresh locally during the winter from those who have green houses
but it is very very expensive. In the summer, it would have to be imported
from a much cooler climate. We could solve our winter problem with a
greenhouse but A solar greenhouse would require a fair expenditure of
funds it seems and so far we have not been able to do that. Would love to
hear from anyone who has ideas in that regard as well as anyone with an
idea of how to grow lettuce that is not bitter in the summer time in
Virginia.
Attitude is what I am really talking about here. What is more important?
Infinite variety or living within our means-literally?
Sherry Boyd
In the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia
DISCLAIMER: Use of advanced computing technology does not imply an
endorsement of Western Industrial Civilization.
CLAIMER:
Only after the last tree has been cut down,
Only after the last river has been poisoned,
Only after the last fish has been caught,
Only then will you find that money cannot be eaten.
>>Cree Indian Prophecy<<
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From ???@??? Fri Mar 19 14:35 1999
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Stan King
Message-Id: <19990319223543.FAHI14456@localHost>
To: positive-futures
Subject: Re: [pf] 200miles
Jodi Hickcox wrote:
> How can people in desert or mountainous areas get food year round from
thier own 200 mile radius. I assume you mean food grown locally and
prepared or preserved, canned frozen or whatever-still locally. . Are you
suggesting the snowy winter states have food that only their area grows?
That Michigan cant have Texas or Florida citrus fruits? ever?
Betsy Barnum replied:
>I'm suggesting that sustainable food production can't be achieved when
>food is being transported long distances as a regular practice. As a
>practical matter, I think this does imply that people eat food that can be
>produced in the region where they live.
[Stan King:]
The people in our society are conditioned to have instant access to
anything. We want to be able to get in whatever type of car we want
and drive whenever and where ever we want and live anywhere our heart's
desire. We want to be able to have any type of food any time we want it.
Living off of the earth's capital, rather than its interest, and being
awash in oil has enabled us to do this. A society that looks at the
price of something rather than its true cost has supported this.
Of course, as Betsy indicates, this is not sustainable. We probably
have decades, rather than centuries before we are out of oil.
(There is an Scientific American article which explores this at:
http://matu1.math.auckland.ac.nz/~king/Preprints/book/diversit/extra/oil/oil2.htm)
Perhaps we will have alternative technologies, perhaps not. I think again
the question is what is sustainable. Also, if for whatever reason (e.g., Y2K)
we had a disruption to our oil supplies, we would be figuring out to survive
on locally grown food right now.
The original question asks how people in mountainous areas or desert
areas will get their food. I would get to the root of that question
and ask if people should be able to live where ever they want even if
it's beyond the carrying capacity of the land. A yes response
is a reflection of our culture's disregard for the natural world and
a lack of compassion for those (non-humans) who live in it. How many
species have we driven to extinction because we believe we can live/drive/
eat whatever/when ever we want?
Homo Sapiens and our hominid ancestors have subsisted quite well
on locally foraged food for probably 99.99% of our existence.
It's true that moving to locally grown food will result in less
overall variety, but I'll bet we enjoy it more. I wouldn't touch
Chilean grapes with a ten foot pole. I suspect if I ate grapes
year round I wouldn't enjoy them nearly as much as I do when I
eat them in season. There are also ways to increase local variety
and growing seasons by using Permaculture concepts, where a lot
of work is going on to create sustainable, local agriculture.
(For more on Permaculture look at:
http://www.nor.com.au/environment/perma/.)
Also, imagine how much happier and healthier we would be if we all
ate locally grown
"slow food" (as opposed to "fast food")?
Best Regards,
Stan
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From ???@??? Sat Mar 20 19:09:38 1999
from kc-ent2-9.itol.com (kc-ent2-9.itol.com [209.83.59.69]) by admin.itol.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA20832 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:53:58 -0600
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:53:58 -0600
From: Jill Taylor Bussiere
Message-Id: <199903192353.RAA20832@admin.itol.com>
To: positive-futures@igc.org
Subject: Re: [pf] 200miles
>Also, imagine how much happier and healthier we would be if we all
>ate locally grown "slow food" (as opposed to "fast food")?
>
>Best Regards,
>Stan
>
Yeah!!!! I agree wholeheartedly. I like Big Macs - and ate one every few
weeks. ( I grew quite fond of them in college - I worked at McDonald's to
get myself through school). Am trying not to now- the org. conference
helped - you guys on pf help. Plus, I always have healthy, organic, often
home grown food at home - so I try to talk myself into something else. I am
used to giving myself unhealthy treats - to make life a little better, when
if I ate "good food", I would really be treating myself and making life
better in a sustainable way rather than in the moment.
Jill
Wi zone 4-5
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From ???@??? Sat Mar 20 19:09:51 1999
from PRichter1@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id qKJVa26764 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 19:23:47 +1900 (EST)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 19:23:47 EST
From: PRichter1@aol.com
Message-ID: <440ecf3.36f2ea93@aol.com>
To: positive-futures@igc.org
Subject: Re: [pf] 200miles
About this 200-mile sustainability thing:
One of the things I like about being a minister is that I get to hear people's
stories -- people of all ages. One of the stories that I hear consistently
from those who grew up in the depression-era is that one of their biggest
Christmas treats was an orange in their stocking. They really looked forward
to getting an orange at Christmas. I hear this from lots of people. Arnie,
was this your experience??? This is hard to conceive when we can get so many
different varieties of oranges year round (and I look forward to clementines
around Christmas).
I have come to primarily food shop at a coop, at produce places/farm markets,
and ethnic markets. I really hate to set foot in a grocery store and probably
only go once or twice a month. I have to admit to being something of a
foodie, but I'm doing better.
I don't like those commercial strawberries -- I like the locally grown ones
when it is their *time*. And I was ecstatic to find red raspberries growing
out back of the little house I moved into last summer (too bad I have to move
this summer). I started making raspberry muffins and all of that when I
realized that they taste best just fresh off the bush. For weeks I ate
raspberries all day long. I guess I'm saying that I am more and more leaning
towards eating locally.
I was browsing in a bookstore today (ok, it was one of those big chains --
sorry), and I looked through a book about Irish monasteries in the middle ages
off the coast of Ireland on rock piles that aren't even really islands. The
author talked about their diet as being very spartan -- probably makes David's
look exotic. They could not grow much but were able, probably, to ship in lots
of grain. Bread was a mainstay. The veggies were probably grown in the sparse
soil, but forget about fruit except for the occasional berry. Evidently even
sea food was not eaten much. It was interesting. I would love to move towards
a more minimalist diet. Could I survive without my balsamic vinegar and extra
virgin olive oil? Why is this so hard????
Blessings, Priscilla
(who is beginning to interview at various hospital
chaplaincy programs -- wish me luck!)
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From ???@??? Sat Mar 20 19:09:53 1999
from PRichter1@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id qULWa13699 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 19:27:03 +1900 (EST)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 19:27:03 EST
From: PRichter1@aol.com
Message-ID: <819cf74a.36f2eb57@aol.com>
To: positive-futures@igc.org
Subject: Re: [pf] 200miles
Diane, I sent my reply to Betsy's post off before I read yours. All I can say
is, "Great minds think alike".
Priscilla
Diane wrote,
> The talk about going to regional food markets and the changes in diet
> that would necessitate reminds me of all the pioneer stories I read as a
> child. What did kids get in those days for Christmas? In just about
> every book I read it was an orange -- to be savored through taste,
> smell, touch and sight.
>
> Gosh, I enjoy oranges but I bet I'd enjoy them even more if they were a
> rare treat. I know we who advocate simple living don't like to talk
> about the d-word (deprivation) but doing without makes the doing with
> that much more sweeter when you do.
>
> I imagine many of us already practice a form of regionalizing our food
> by trying to buy only in season. I don't buy winter strawberries from
> Chile. Besides, I enjoy the roadside stand strawberries in the summer
> so much more.
>
> FWIW, Diane
>
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From ???@??? Sat Mar 20 19:10:14 1999
from arnie (arniea.seanet.com [204.182.72.148]) by mx.seanet.com (8.8.8/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA03976; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:37:58 -0800 (PST)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 18:41:09 -0800
From: Arnie P. Anfinson
In-Reply-To: <440ecf3.36f2ea93@aol.com>
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990319184109.007f4530@pop.seanet.com>
Subject: Re: [pf] 200miles
At 07:23 PM 3/19/1999 EST, PRichter1@aol.com wrote:
>About this 200-mile sustainability thing:
>They really looked forward to getting an orange at Christmas. I hear this
from lots of people. Arnie, was this your experience???
No, Priscilla, I don't even remember that much of a luxury. And I do
remember having frequent colds during the winter. But remember, this was
mostly during the Depression or pre-depression when my family were also
struggling financially.
I agree with those who said (implied?) that things we have too much of
loses its appeal; it's this _becoming-sated_ thing that I see happening to
so many, ESPECIALLY the young people. S H U D D E R, UGGH! ... But then -
I know how Un-American (or even un free-market) this attitude is! We've
got to keep CONSUMING, otherwise the "economy" will collapse, won't it?!!
I'm willing to risk it.
Arnie
Education is what survives when what you've learned has been forgotten.
In times of rapid change it will be the learners who will be in a position
to lead. The learned will find themselves equipped only to deal with
things that are past.
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From ???@??? Sun Mar 21 06:53:03 1999
from default (gageppp30.hwcn.org [199.212.94.230]) by james.hwcn.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA24172 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:06:59 -0500 (EST)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:57:03 -0500
From: "Ronald Hands"
Message-Id: <199903201506.KAA24172@james.hwcn.org>
Subject: Re: [pf] 200miles
> Diane wrote,
> > The talk about going to regional food markets and the changes in diet
> > that would necessitate reminds me of all the pioneer stories I read as a
> > child. What did kids get in those days for Christmas? In just about
> > every book I read it was an orange -- to be savored through taste,
> > smell, touch and sight.
I'm beginning to feel like one of those pioneers...
Actually, the Christmas orange story is exactly as I remember it in my
childhood (during the Depression). Oranges, in our house and in many
others, were a Christmas-only treat. They were Sunkist, they came
individually wrapped in tissue paper, and they were a taste sensation that
lived in the memory for many months. (And the wooden orange crates were a
treasured by-product, useful for all sorts of things.)
Similarly, ice cream was something I remember as a once-a-summer treat.
Our family (two children, two adults) would buy a carton of ice cream,
hand-scooped, and probably totalling about half a pint. For 25 cents as I
recall -- but remember that was probably an hour's wage for my
factory-worker father.
No home refrigerator then and certainly no freezer (and even for those
who did have refrigerators, the freezer compartment was just big enough for
an ice cube tray) so the ice cream had to be eaten immediately. And it
was!
The town we lived in near the end of the Depression had a fruit store,
so somebody was buying the stuff, but it wasn't us.
I can't remember what the banana situation would have been, but I seem
to remember they were more plentiful than oranges.
Ah, but those locally-grown strawberries! And the first Harvest apples!
And the first new potatoes. And elderberries picked at the roadside and
swiftly translated into elderberry pies!
Incidentally, someone was talking recently about recycling. Strangely
enough, during the Depression when North America was awash in resources and
unsold goods, there was still a lively recycling market. As children, we
would collect huge mounds of old newspapers and take them to the "junk
dealer," hoping for vast rewards -- and then have to settle for a cent or
two. Incidentally, he operated in a barn that was located right in a
middle-class residential area -- so much for single-use zoning. The
neighborhood wasn't visibly degraded by his presence, and the fact that he
was an amiable drunk was probably just one more facet of our education.
Speaking of year-round gardening, Ferenc Mate's fine book A Reasonable
Life: Toward a Simpler, Secure, more Humane Existence has a chapter tucked
in at the end by Eliot Coleman and Barbara Damrosch explaining how Coleman
puts fresh food on the table, year-round, in Maine.
-- Ron
Hamilton, ON
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From ???@??? Sun Mar 21 06:53:06 1999
(from gordonse@localhost) by shell.one.net (8.8.7/AD2000) id LAA20918 for positive-futures@igc.org; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 11:52:42 -0500
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 11:52:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Sharon Gordon
Message-Id: <199903201652.LAA20918@shell.one.net>
Subject: [pf] 200 miles -- Want to try it?
Anyone want to try growing a large percentage of their food this
year or make a start at it?
I sent some info to the list a week or so ago on some ways to
accomplish it using biointensive planting which gives good yields for
less work and is sustainable.
I think it would be fun to share the planning and share info
about what sort of day to day food results are gained. We
could give each other ideas about tasty ways to prepare the
harvest too.
Also, would some kind person send me back a copy of the post?
I needed to pass it along to someone else and it seems not
to have saved properly. Thanks! (title 200/garden/yieled data or similar).
Sharon
gordonse@one.net
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From ???@??? Sun Mar 21 06:53:11 1999
from pm7-219.roanoke.infi.net (pm7-219.roanoke.infi.net [205.216.36.219]) by fh106.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA26378; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:34:01 -0500 (EST)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:25:36 -0800
From: Sallee Ebbett
Message-ID: <36F41250.3330@roanoke.infi.net>
Subject: Re: [pf] 200 miles--Want to try it?
Sharon,
I'll agree to participate! As much as I can, I grow vegies and herbs in
pots on my patio (I live in an apartment). Last year was pretty bad,
with the exception of hot peppers - I'm not sure why they did well and
nothing else did! I had more than I would ever need and don't intend to
grow them again for awhile.
Does anyone out there use the phases of the moon to plant by? I've
heard of it for years, but finally found a decent description of it in
John Jeavons' "How to Grow More Vegetables."
Does anyone have any tips on container gardening and FRUIT - as in
berries (I think I'm too late in the season, but would like to think
about it for next year)?
When you get a copy of your original post, could you forward it to me?
I can't seem to find it, but had thought I'd saved it.
Thanks,
Sallee (in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia)
-------------
Sharon Gordon wrote:
>
> Anyone want to try growing a large percentage of their food this
> year or make a start at it?
>
> I sent some info to the list a week or so ago on some ways to
> accomplish it using biointensive planting which gives good yields for
> less work and is sustainable.
>
> I think it would be fun to share the planning and share info
> about what sort of day to day food results are gained. We
> could give each other ideas about tasty ways to prepare the
> harvest too.
>
> Also, would some kind person send me back a copy of the post?
> I needed to pass it along to someone else and it seems not
> to have saved properly. Thanks! (title 200/garden/yiled data or similar).
>
> Sharon
> gordonse@one.net
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From ???@??? Mon Mar 22 05:45:09 1999
(from gordonse@localhost) by shell.one.net (8.8.7/AD2000) id KAA15155 for positive-futures@igc.org; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:10:35 -0500
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:10:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Sharon Gordon
Message-Id: <199903211510.KAA15155@shell.one.net>
Subject: Re: [pf] 200 miles--Want to try it? (fwd)
Sallee posted some info about her gardening:
> I'll agree to participate! As much as I can, I grow vegies and herbs in
> pots on my patio (I live in an apartment). Last year was pretty bad,
> with the exception of hot peppers - I'm not sure why they did well and
> nothing else did! I had more than I would ever need and don't intend to
> grow them again for awhile.
The only reason I could think of is that if your patio or pots are
black/dark material, and your summer was warm, the pots may have
gotten too hot for most of the vegetables. Peppers tend to like warmer
soil than most plants so they might have been verrrrry happy with
the warm soil. Is there a way you can block the sun from hitting
the pot itself once the weather gets warm?
The only other thing I can think of is if you got some bad potting
soil in most of your bags except for the soil you put in the peppers.
I once got some soil in a bag that turned out to have a pH of 3.
Pretty much nothing will grow in soil like that.
> Does anyone have any tips on container gardening and FRUIT - as in
> berries (I think I'm too late in the season, but would like to think
> about it for next year)?
There is an interesting commercial strawberry planter that is
a set of stacked circular beds, with the top being the smallest
circle. You can get a ton of strawberries in this. There are
also terracotta or pottery jars with cutouts that work well
with strawberry plants. For the frugal, consider a white plastic 5 gallon
food bucket from a bakery or restaurant (free or $1 usually). Cut some
holes in the sides of the bucket, put a
perforated pipe in the center for watering(plastic, or can make
your own if you do pottery work).
Another thing you could do this year is blueberries--get two that
will pollinate each other. Grapes on some sturdy support are
fun too.
Most fruits would work ok this year. Most people don't get much
from potted fruit trees, so if you have limited space, vegetables
may do you more good. But if you really want one for just picked
fruit go for it!
Sharon
gordonse@one.net
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From ???@??? Tue Mar 23 05:46:56 1999
from pop.ou.edu (dyn0-85.educ.ou.edu [129.15.102.85]) by styx.services.ou.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA07962 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:00:27 -0600 (CST)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:05:33 -0600
From: Diane Fitzsimmons
Message-ID: <36F65C3D.33D7C2CF@pop.ou.edu>
Subject: Re: [pf] 200 miles--Want to try it?
Sharon Gordon wrote:
>
> Anyone want to try growing a large percentage of their food this
> year or make a start at it?
>
I'm taking my first baby step. To celebrate my 43rd birthday on the
first day of spring, I began what I hope will eventually become a
bio-intensive garden such as advocated in Square-Foot Gardening and by
John Jeavons. I've done a little salad gardening before but never with
an eye toward long-range soil stewardship and food production. I've
been interested for many years but have always had one excuse or another
to put it off one more year (we will move soon, the landlord won't like
it, the house is being painted and the chips will get in the soil,
etc.) Well, we're still here, the landlord doesn't care and the house
was never painted! So, I'm going to start anyway!
Day One: The 12-year-old and I took turns overturning the damp, clay
soil, disrupting decades of suburban lawn. Transplanted the soil clumps
to parts of the yard in need of fill-in. Warned the 12-year-old it will
be the new Millennium before we have a beautiful garden like on the
cover of Square-Foot Gardening.
Day Two: We will purchase the vermiculite, peat moss, manure, etc., to
help the soil, plant my 10-year-old's science class bean plant and nurse
my muscle soreness from Day One!
I will keep you posted!
Diane F.
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From ???@??? Tue Mar 23 06:36:29 1999
from clb5q.virginia.edu (bootp-109-239.bootp.Virginia.EDU [128.143.109.239]) by server1.mail.virginia.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA29734; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:09:57 -0500 (EST)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:12:19 -0500
From: Sherry Boyd
Message-Id: <199903221809.NAA29734@server1.mail.virginia.edu>
Subject: Re: [pf] 200 miles--Want to try it?
Diane et al,
Hats off to you!!!! What a great thing to do with your 12 year old. What
we do matters so much more than what we say.
For clay soil......put gypsum in to help create loam. It's a wonder
mineral for those of us in the hard packed clay
soil of the foothills here. Hope it helps you on your way.
Sherry
----------
> From: Diane Fitzsimmons
> Day One: The 12-year-old and I took turns overturning the damp, clay
> soil, disrupting decades of suburban lawn. Transplanted the soil clumps
> to parts of the yard in need of fill-in. Warned the 12-year-old it will
> be the new Millennium before we have a beautiful garden like on the
> cover of Square-Foot Gardening.
>
> Day Two: We will purchase the vermiculite, peat moss, manure, etc., to
> help the soil, plant my 10-year-old's science-class-bean-plant and nurse
> my muscle soreness from Day One!
>
> I will keep you posted!
>
> Diane F.
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From ???@??? Tue Mar 23 13:06:41 1999
from CathGeorge@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id cYWJa24800; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:21:48 +1900 (EST)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:21:48 EST
From: CathGeorge@aol.com
Message-ID:
Subject: Re: [pf] 200 miles--Want to try it?
Rubbermaid makes a "Green Cone" food waste composter. You put your kitchen
waste in them. I have two and use them both -- when one gets full I switch to
the other and eventually what you get is rich dark beautiful compost. If
anybody's interested maybe I can find out where you can get them. The City of
Seattle gives them out for a nominal cost if you attend their really good
class on recycling.
I've been doing a bit more food gardening each year -- still a real novice,
plus I work many hours a week so that cuts into the available time. But as a
wonderful lifestyle thing to do, and to teach our children -- this ranks way
up there. My most time-effective crop has been broccoli and kale and
Also, for the first time in my life I've picked and eaten dandelion leaves. I
get about a cup of the little ones, before the flower heads have formed. I
put them in salads and to my amazement, they taste fine. There they are; it
seems a shame to dig them up and waste them. My yard has no sprays or
anything, so I know they are safe. You'd probably have to be careful if you
get them from median strips or places like that.
"Listening" to the talk about 200 miles makes me more determined to buy local
produce. It mattered to me before, but this group has made it closer to my
mind, every day.
-- Catherine in Seattle
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From ???@??? Tue Mar 23 16:26:53 1999
from steve (dial-22-MAX-BBVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.57.150]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA13983; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:47:03 -0500
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:41:52 -0500
From: "Donna Faith K-Brooks"
Message-ID: <000401be74df$1efd5340$963929cf@steve>
Subject: Re: [pf] 200 miles--Want to try it?
Hi Catherine,
I would love to know where to get those food composters. We're living
in town now and saving food scraps and this would make it a lot easier.
Thanks!
-----Original Message-----
From: CathGeorge@aol.com
Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: [pf] 200 miles--Want to try it?
>Rubbermaid makes a "Green Cone" food waste composter. You put your kitchen
>waste in them. I have two and use them both -- when one gets full I switch
to
>the other and eventually what you get is rich dark beautiful compost. If
>anybody's interested maybe I can find out where you can get them.
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From ???@??? Wed Mar 24 05:48:57 1999
from CathGeorge@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id 7BZBa17081; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:48:41 +1900 (EST)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:48:41 EST
From: CathGeorge@aol.com
Message-ID:
Subject: Re: [pf] 200 miles--Want to try it?
Donna,
I have sent a query about the green cone compost things to Rubbermaid, by e-
mail. They say they'll get back to me within a week, and I'll forward what
they say.
-- Catherine in Seattle
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From ???@??? Wed Mar 24 05:49:30 1999
from localhost (gthomas@localhost) by acad.suffolk.edu (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with ESMTP id JAA56794; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:33:40 -0500 (EST)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:33:40 -0500 (EST)
From: gthomas@acad.suffolk.edu
Message-ID:
Subject: [pf] 200 mile try
I have been a "salad" gardener for the past two years and hope
this year to grow a "real" garden, based on John Jeavon's methods, in my
community garden plot. I have read so much from so many sources, though,
that my head is spinning. Dig? Double-dig? Newspaper and compost, black
plastic mulch -- ahhhhhhhh!! We've also tended to have very pretty
gardens, but not particularly bountiful gardens, so it's gonna be an
adjustment to give up attractiveness for utility, but I really want to
try. I'm also often confused by planting times. For example, we're zone
6, so we should plant peas and beans while it's cold, but our compost
never makes it to the garden until May or June. Do I plant now or wait
until the compost is on?? This is really a question for my organic
gardening list. But anyway, just wanted to say, Yes! I'll try, too.
Glynys
Boston
> Sharon Gordon wrote:
> > Anyone want to try growing a large percentage of their food this
> > year or make a start at it?
> >
On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Diane Fitzsimmons wrote:
> I'm taking my first baby step. To celebrate my 43rd birthday on the
> first day of spring, I began what I hope will eventually become a
> bio-intensive garden such as advocated in Square-Foot Gardening and by
> John Jeavons. I've done a little salad gardening before but never with
> an eye toward long-range soil stewardship and food production. I've
> been interested for many years but have always had one excuse or another
> to put it off one more year (we will move soon, the landlord won't like
> it, the house is being painted and the chips will get in the soil,
> etc.) Well, we're still here, the landlord doesn't care and the house
> was never painted! So, I'm going to start anyway!
>
> Day One: The 12-year-old and I took turns overturning the damp, clay
> soil, disrupting decades of suburban lawn. Transplanted the soil clumps
> to parts of the yard in need of fill-in. Warned the 12-year-old it will
> be the new Millennium before we have a beautiful garden like on the
> cover of Square-Foot Gardening.
>
> Day Two: We will purchase the vermiculite, peat moss, manure, etc., to
> help the soil, plant my 10-year-old's science class bean plant and nurse
> my muscle soreness from Day One!
>
> I will keep you posted!
>
> Diane F.
>
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From ???@??? Wed Mar 24 05:49:33 1999
from kc-ent-38.itol.com (kc-ent-38.itol.com [209.83.59.47]) by admin.itol.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA09621 for ; Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:07:14 -0600
From: Jill Taylor Bussiere
Subject: Re: [pf] 200 mile try
Sounds like maybe you weren't asking, but I have an opinion on your
deliberations that I can't seem to hold back.
From my own experience, and hearing discussion among other gardeners (some
if it on the famed "tomato trial" list) I would recommend that you Don't
use black plastic. Organic gardening strives for a healthy interactive
soil, and black plastic cuts down on that activity, either by heating up the
soil so that things that you want die or die down somewhat, or by cutting
off air. Your idea of newspaper and compost is an excellent one.
Peas do need the cool weather, so you wouldn't want to wait on them. You
can coat the seeds with pea innoculant to help the peas make the most of
what they have. I don't know the John Jeavon method, but I have heard it so
much the past few days, that I feel I need to look into it. We plant our
peas in wide rows - maybe 2 inches apart about 10 rows, in a wide bed 30
feet long. The close planting allows the peas to support each other, shade
the ground to retain moisture, and keep weeds down, although you still have
to weed through about twice in the season. Then the newspaper/compost would
go between wide rows.
Most beans like hot weather, except the purple ones, but aren't as fussy as
other plants about their soil, so I wouldn't worry about them TOO much either.
Maybe you could double dig for your root crops, and not for the others. If
it looks too intimidating to do it for all. I would single dig for the
other crops, though.
Well, good luck.
At 09:33 AM 3/23/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I have been a "salad" gardener for the past two years and hope
>this year to grow a "real" garden, based on John Jeavon's methods, in my
>community garden plot. I have read so much from so many sources, though,
>that my head is spinning. Dig? Double-dig? Newspaper and compost, black
>plastic mulch -- ahhhhhhhh!! We've also tended to have very pretty
>gardens, but not particularly bountiful gardens, so it's gonna be an
>adjustment to give up attractiveness for utility, but I really want to
>try. I'm also often confused by planting times. For example, we're zone
>6, so we should plant peas and beans while it's cold, but our compost
>never makes it to the garden until May or June. Do I plant now or wait
>until the compost is on?? This is really a question for my organic
>gardening list. But anyway, just wanted to say, Yes! I'll try, too.
>
>
>Glynys
>Boston
>
Jill
Wi zone 4-5
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From ???@??? Thu Mar 25 19:29:33 1999
from pavilion (ip151.van13.pacifier.com [216.65.140.151]) by smtp.pacifier.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA14248 for ;
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:54:21 -0800 (PST)
From: dwills@pacifier.com (Diane Wills)
Message-Id: <199903250654.WAA14248@smtp.pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: [pf] 200miles
>Dear Betsy.
>How can people in desert or mountainous areas get food year round from
their own 200 mile radius. I assume you mean food grown locally and prepared
or preserved, canned frozen or whatever-still locally. Are you suggesting
the snowy winter states have food that only their area grows? That Michigan
can't have Texas or Florida citrus fruits? ever?
I know the people of Tibet live at an altitude of 15,000 feet up where it is
cold and bare, yet they somehow manage to produce all their own food and
live off the land. Also, my mother and her family grew up on a farm in
Northern Alberta and they produced most of their own food (and most of the
year lived off of canned fruits and vegetables since the growing season up
there is so short).
>I'm not sure if that sounds like a giant step backward. the beauty of
living in a big nation is partly the commerce between regions, each area
marketing what others dont have.
Well I've been taking the "Sustainability" class from the Northwest Earth
Institute and from what I am learning in that class is that commerce is not
a sustainable thing, especially over long distances. For one thing, there
are shipping costs (in fossil fuels) associated with shipping. Plus, if a
major depression hits (or the infrastructure falls apart with the Y2K thing
as some people believe) or we suddenly run out of fossil fuels, Americans
simply won't know how to grow their own food because we have lost knowledge
of farming and have imported so much food and there would surely be mass
starvation in America. The only reason there wasn't mass starvation during
the Great Depression of the 1930's was that people still knew how to farm
and produced their own food when they didn't have jobs to support their own
families.
Also, when food is imported, it is frequently raised in countries where
there are no environmental laws and the use of any chemical or pesticide can
be used, no matter how environmentally destructive or harmful to humans (at
least in the US the worst chemicals/pesticides are outlawed although US
farmers (and homeowners as well) use far too many chemicals). Plus I have
learned that many third-world countries that export food to the US often do
so at the cost of feeding their own citizens, thus causing more starvation
in their own countries.
Taking this class has convinced me that, at the very least, the basics of
supporting life, such as food or water, should be produced locally (at least
enough to live on), possibly only using imported food for special occasions
or as seasonal treats. Sure, it may mean that in some areas people have to
do without some things they are used to, but what could possibly be more
important than sustainability. Americans have just gotten used to having
too much variety of food and taking it for granted and they now expect it.
To live sustainably, we are going to have to give up alot of what we are
used to, and there is no way around it.
Another interesting fact is that locally and organically-grown produce is
much better quality and fresher than what's grown and bred to be transported
long distances without spoiling. Local farms can grow and produce much
better vegetables and a wider variety, since they don't have to travel long
distances, and often they sell their produce to expensive restaurants. I am
considering joining a CSA (community-supported agriculture) farm in this
area for that reason. Americans have gotten so used to the fruit and
vegetables produced by the big corporate farms that they aren't aware of how
much better locally-produced vegetables can be.
>I used to live in fruit growing southern Michigan. If we couldn't sell our
fruit to out of area buyers, waht would we do wiht it , let it rot? If one
likes grapes ought one move to a sandy soil area and get a job there?
>What do I get to eat in Houston? /Santa Fe / Chicago?
It also turns out that a wide variety of fruits and vegetables can be grown
most places.
>Has any one a guide to what grows where and not at all elsewhere?
>I hate to say it out loud in black& white, but this 200 mile idea, to
bolster sustainability, would logically have to include, shoes, cars, paper
products, and what else????? Its not just food that moves more than 200
miles to reach consumers.
Ideally it would. At the very least, if we must import something, it should
be of such high quality that we'd just buy it once and it would last the
rest of our lives. Remember, once we run out of fossil fuels, we won't have
any choice but to get everything locally (and if we don't learn to at least
grow enough food to sustain ourselves locally, we (here in America) will
starve once fossil fuels run out).
In case anyone is interested in reading this booklet from the Northwest
Earth Institute (and I highly recommend it), their address is:
It has really opened up my eyes and helped me understand exactly what I can
do differently to truely live more sustainably and helped me understand the
reasoning behind it.
Diane Wills
-------------------------------
| dwills@pacifier.com |
| Diane Wills |
| Vancouver, Washington, USA |
-------------------------------
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From ???@??? Fri Apr 02 07:17:41 1999
from localhost (bshimada@localhost) by flagstaff.Princeton.EDU (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA25351; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 11:27:46 -0500 (EST)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 11:27:46 -0500 (EST)
From: "Beverly W. Shimada"
Message-ID:
Subject: Re: [pf] 200miles
On Fri, 19 Mar 1999 PRichter1@aol.com wrote:
> One of the things I like about being a minister is that I get to hear people's
> stories -- people of all ages. One of the stories that I hear consistently
> from those who grew up in the depression-era is that one of their biggest
> Christmas treats was an orange in their stocking. They really looked forward
> to getting an orange at Christmas. I hear this from lots of people. Arnie,
> was this your experience??? This is hard to conceive when we can get so many
> different varieties of oranges year round (and I look forward to clementines
> around Christmas).
Sorry to jump in here so late. I grew up in Pittsburgh in the 50's and
60's and we got oranges in our stockings, along with a small wrapped gift
and a candy cane. Those oranges were the best. We did have oranges to
eat otherwise too but maybe not so much as to become sated. (I think we
mostly at home-canned fruit in the winter, and frozen-concentrate orange
juice.)
> a more minimalist diet. Could I survive without my balsamic vinegar and extra
> virgin olive oil? Why is this so hard????
Well, don't forget there are places (I think) where these things are
minimalist/local. It isn't so crazy to want them; they are good, basic
foods in the Mediterranean! It is only because it is your lot to live in
Pittsburgh that they are luxuries.
> Blessings, Priscilla (who is beginning to interview at various hospital
> chaplaincy programs -- wish me luck!)
Good luck!
Beverly
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Beverly Wilson Shimada bshimada@phoenix.princeton.edu
Department of Civil Engineering and Operations Research
Princeton University Princeton, New Jersey, USA
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From ???@??? Fri Apr 02 13:50:40 1999
from arnie (arniea.seanet.com [204.182.72.148]) by mx.seanet.com (8.8.8/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA15851; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:54:42 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 12:10:52 -0800
From: "Arnie P. Anfinson"
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990401121052.007c32e0@pop.seanet.com>
Subject: Re: [pf] 200miles
At 11:27 AM 4/1/1999 -0500, Beverly W. Shimada wrote:
>On Fri, 19 Mar 1999 PRichter1@aol.com wrote:
>
> Christmas treats was an orange in their stocking. They
>really looked forward to getting an orange at Christmas.
>I hear this from lots of people. Arnie, was this your
>experience???
Guess you missed my comment on this. I don't remember anything like this.
Perhaps we were TOO POOR even for that -- or we can always blame my memory
-- at my age I'm permitted to use the "forgetting" excuse -- right?
A slightly related subject. I've just been invited to have lunch with a
person I'm trying to `lobby' on WELLNESS (he's in the Health Promotion
Dep't. of an HMO) and he wants to take me to my favorite restaurant. I've
warned him that I'm hard to impress, perhaps because my pallette is not as
sensitive as it used to be! I like to say it is because I "eat to live".
"Fancy" food is an extravagence!! Yeh, I know: Get a Life!
Be well, . . Arnie
Education is what survives when what you've learned has been forgotten.
In times of rapid change it will be the learners who will be in a position
to lead. The learned will find themselves equipped only to deal with
things that are past.
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April '99 Positive Futures messages sorted by:
[ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 08:54:11 +1200
From: David MacClement (davd@oocities.com)
At 19:23 19/03/99 EST, Priscilla Richter <PRichter1@aol.com> wrote:
>About this 200-mile sustainability thing:
> ... One of the stories that I hear consistently
>from those who grew up in the depression-era is that one of their biggest
>Christmas treats was an orange in their stocking. They really looked
>forward to getting an orange at Christmas. I hear this from lots of people.
> Arnie, was this your experience??? This is hard to conceive of.
> ... I guess I'm saying that I am more and more leaning
>towards eating locally.
** I'm only now reading through the "200 mile" thread, as part of building
up an archive of it on my website. (Big job.)
** I grew up in Canada during WW-II, then in New Zealand until 1959, and
in both cases we did exactly that: my mother would do all she could to be
sure we had an orange, usually in the toe of our stockings/sox. (I still
remember how we "savored through taste, smell, touch and sight". Thanks,
Diane!).
>I was browsing in a bookstore today .., and I looked through a book about
>Irish monasteries in the middle ages off the coast of Ireland on rock piles
>that aren't even really islands. The author talked about their diet as
>being very spartan -- probably makes David's look exotic. They could not
>grow much but were able, probably, to ship in lots of grain. Bread was a
>mainstay. The veggies were probably grown in the sparse soil, but forget
>about fruit except for the occasional berry. ...
>
** _I_ feel a real kinship with those monks. And I'm guessing the
differences would be less than you might think. The cabbage, carrots and
bread would be the same (a very similar climate - maritime); I have a
little rolled oats plus Weetbix - they'd have porridge year round; and
(surprise) the Marmite was developed from the scrapings from the making of
beer, and is called a yeast extract - I'm pretty sure the Irish monks made
beer - they might have originated what is now Marmite! We both would use
honey; with luck, year round.
>Blessings, Priscilla (who is beginning to interview at various
hospital chaplaincy programs -- wish me luck!)
>
** This letter of Priscilla's is from 3 weeks ago: how's the job search
going?
David.
David MacClement <d1v9d@bigfoot.com>
http://www.oocities.org/Athens/Delphi/3142/index.html#top
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