Anti-Flag seems to be on the verge of becoming one of the US's most popular punk bands. But that doesn't mean they suck. Honest! Lyrics hat sound the clarion call of class war, lashing out against widening economic disparities, mindless patriotism and police abuses, to name but a few things on these three men and one woman's collective minds. Anti-Flag began as a three-piece, with Pat (drums), Andy (bass) and Justin (guitar), with Andy and Justin sharing the vocals. This lineup appeared on their string of 7 inches, plus a split album with Canadian band dbs, a split picture disc with the Dread and their full-length album "Die For The Government." After a few lineup changes, they've expanded to a four-piece, adding Chris on guitar and Jaime on bass.
SV: Tell me who each of you are…
Chris: I'm Chris, I'm 19 and I play the guitar.
Justin: I'm Justin Sane, I play guitar and I sing. I'm 19.
SV: You're 19…LIAR!! You've been 19 for three years.
Justin: (laughs) So you finally caught on to that!
Pat: My name's Pat Thetic and I play drums and my social security number is [deleted in the name of national security.
SV: Why do you always tell people your social security number?
Pat: It's not the right one.
Jaime: He uses a different one every night.
Pat: …and I'm 19
Jaime: My name's Jaime but they call me Cock and I'm 19 and I'm from Canada.
SV: Why do they call you Cock?
Jaime: 'Cause last summer I used to say cock all the time instead of fuck 'cause I thought it was more obnoxious. So they started calling me Cock.
SV: Is it a Canadian thing?
Jaime: Nope, 'cause they made it up.
SV: Why did Andy leave the band?
Justin: He left while we were on tour. He quit in Savannah, Georgia, at Pizza On Wheels.
Pat: He left because he didn't like what was going on any more and he had other things going on in his life and just wasn't getting along with Justin and I.
Justin: Yeah, we really weren't getting along at all which is too bad and, at the time, it seemed like, in retrospect, that we were working way too hard. We were doing too much and taking ourselves way too seriously. We've learned a lot from it. Unfortunately, he had to quit before we learned what we really needed to learn but I think we learned to pace ourselves and we learned that things can be serious, but we still have to make sure everything's still fun. And there really wasn't anything fun left in it and we'd just been together for way too long and, eventually, we couldn't stand each other any more. For some reason, Pat and I were able to deal with things between each other but we weren't able to deal with things with Andy. It was all very personal. It wasn't anything as far as…
Pat: …it was definitely very personal.
SV: You guys are friends with Art the Old Man, who's in his 40s. You're touring with the UK Subs, who have guys in their 40s and 50s…
Pat: It's funny you bring that up because, last tour we did, we toured with almost the youngest kids we've ever worked with. They were like 16 and 15 years old.
Justin: dbs from Vancouver, Canada.
SV: So, my point it, you're with guys who are older and have been involved in punk for a long time. Can you see yourselves staying involved that long in music or activism? Is it a lifelong commitment for you? Do you have any ideas about that?
Jaime: Yes.
Pat: Cock says yes. And you obviously want to say yes because that's where that question is leading. You don't want to say, no, I'm a sellout, I'm going to be wearing a suit and tie next week. But I don't even know what's going to be going on next week, no matter what, because when we were starting this out, we were playing in Justin's shack and think, wow, it'd be cool to play a show with the UK Subs and now we're playing shows with the UK Subs and you never know what's going on the next week. So, obviously, we've grown past our "this is a cool thing to do because we've 15 years old" and this is a lifestyle for us but I don't know where we're going to be in 10 years or whatever. And people like the Old Man are inspiring, people like Nicky Garratt, who found a way to survive doing something that they love doing or Art, who still keeps everything going in his own way.
SV: How do you feel about the argument that some people present that bands shouldn't make money off their art? Others, meanwhile, say if you can make money doing something you love, there's nothing wrong with that. How do you feel about that?
Justin: I think if you're going to devote yourself to it, you have to be able to make enough money to live from it. We put in 24 hours a day into this band, especially when we're on the road. It's hard to work and we don't make next to any money. We pay ourselves $5 a day and that's just enough to eat. But there's no way we could live off that and if you're going to devote all your time to something, you're going to have to at least make enough money to live off it. I think it's kind of unrealistic to not be able to survive. Otherwise, we're not going to be doing it.
Pat: And the other problem is bands who are, not to name any bands, but bands that we know who fell into that argument and had to break up because they couldn't see making any money at it. Who had great ideas and were doing great things, but it got frustrating because of that dichotomy -- whether they can survive.
SV: We were talking about the whole [Retrogressions 'zine's] Dave Grenier thing a little while ago, where his argument is that you're on stage saying righteous things and all of that and the audience says, "amen," but then they largely go home and don't do anything about it.
Justin: Now, I haven't read what Dave wrote…
SV: Well, I guess how I want to phrase the question is, then, are people picking up on it? Is it just slogans? Is there something more to it than that?
Justin: This is how I've always seen it -- there's a lot of fucked-up things in the punk scene and a lot of our songs address it. Kids who just come to shows and start fights and suck shit up -- the only thing punk about them is the way they look and if that's all punk is to you, then, as far as we're concerned, we don't want them around. But the idea is that there are a lot of great things in punk too and what punk is to one kid can be totally different than what it is to the next kid. To me, as long as someone is trying to make a positive change in any way, I think that's really cool. And wearing an Anti-Flag shirt to some kids is a really big step for that kid because that kid might go to school and get his ass kicked. Now to some other kids who go to protests or organize marches or whatever, that might not seem like that kid is doing much at all. So to Dave Grenier -- he works on a zine, he does a lot of very positive things. He's definitely very involved, he's very active so, to him, maybe some kid who cheers on something that we might say on stage but then goes home and watches TV or hangs out at the mall and pisses people off, maybe it doesn't seem like that kid is doing a whole lot. But, to that kid, what they're doing might be a really big step for them. Maybe those kids have gotten thrown out of their houses for wearing the Anti-Flag short or for having a mohawk. We've talked to kids who have had those problems. Thrown out of their houses or gotten beaten up. So I think it's all relative to the individual of where the individual's coming from. I think it's kind of sad 'cause I think it's a I'm holier than you attitude, I'm punker than you, I do more than you, therefore I'm cooler than you and that's the problem I have with this argument.
Pat: I think Justin said that very well. I don't really have anything to add.
Justin: Another problem too, though. I also can't help but feel it's also petty gossip. There's always been petty gossip in the scene.
SV: It's just the same as real life though, Justin. I mean, just because it's punk rock doesn't mean that it's different from the rest of the world.
Pat: But it should be different from the rest of the world because we're trying to make it the best we can.
Justin: And, you know, we talked to Dave the other night and what Pat said to Dave, and I think this is true, I've seen Pat do this many times. There are people who Pat has issues with or whatever but when people ask him about them, he's not going to stand around and bash them if they're at least trying to do something positive. Because what they're trying to do in a positive way is much more important than the personality flaws or certain flaws that they may have. Punk kids tearing each other down doesn't make any sense. And I think it's cool to point out differences and stuff and problems but I don't think doing it in an attacking way is a positive way of doing it and I think that was the problem with Dave's article. From what we've been told about it, it was done in a very attacking way and Dave even admitted that he wrote it in an attacking way and he shouldn't have written it that way.
SV: You were talking about how some people might get their asses kicked for wearing your shirt. You also hang an American flag upside down when you play live. That's a strong image. They're trying to pass laws against flag desecration. It pisses people off. Have you ever gotten you asses kicked over it? What sort of confrontations have you had?
Pat: This tour has been the most confrontational.
Justin: The whole tour. We really are worn out. There's no doubt about it.
Pat: For us, it's like going to a party every night and everybody in the party wants to kick your ass. We've had a couple of instances. The biggest one was in Newark, where some members of the crowd were not impresses with our flag upside down.
SV: Some members with short hair?
Pat: Some members with short hair. (laughter) They felt that it was inappropriate for us to do that to their flag.
SV: Oh, their flag?
Pat: Their flag and they decided they were going to break our legs for it or whatever they were going to do. Luckily, there were cooler heads in the audience who were able to work things out. We were able to get out before things got broken.
Justin: Yeah, a lot of kids backed us up and it was really cool. A lot of kids standing up for what they believe in.
SV: Hey, those guys are standing up for what they believe in. (laughter)
Pat: That's a good issue because the next time we went back, the guys at the club were like, "if they say anything to you, we're going to throw them out" and that was the issue. It's not a question of them saying stuff to us, because dialogue is amazing. Dialogue is a way to get through the issue. It's the fact that when they want to break our legs for doing what we're doing.
SV: They don't want to discuss things rationally. That's the problem.
Pat: Exactly, 'cause I'm all for a rational discussion.
Jaime: Oh we know, Pat!
SV: It seems to be a problem in the culture in general, the whole talk radio society. There's such a lack of civility. It just boils down to people yelling slogans at each other, no matter what side they're on, and not really getting beyond that.
Pat: That's the amazing thing is that many of our views and much of what we sing about are skinhead values -- except the violence. The working class thing, the anti-war thing…
Justin: They're very skinhead values and yet these guys have a real problem with it. I think there are so many ironies in it but one of them, to me, is the whole ideal of the skinhead nationalist thing is America is a great place because it's free. It's free speech, it's free to do what you want.
SV: Supposedly…
Justin: But as soon as you say anything they don't like, they want to kick your ass.
SV: And If you say anything against the government or police authorities…
Justin: They crack down on you. And that I see as very ironic. What I also see as very ironic about the whole nationalist skin thing is that a lot of them are anti-racist and they don't consider themselves nazis because they’re anti-racist but when you look at the nazi regime, a lot of them used violence and nationalism. Another thing they used was racism, but violence and nationalism seem to go hand in hand with these skinhead guys and that's a very big facist value and very right wing. I think there's a lot of room for improvement in thinking that whole thing through.
SV: Was there some sort of problem with the label that put out your split with dbs? [Nefer Records]
Justin: I don't even remember what the problem was anymore, but there was. When we were on tour with dbs, their manager set up the Canadian part and, more or less, she just lied the whole time with them and lied the whole time to us and it was also her label. She lied about really weird things.
Jaime: Saying that there were shows and there weren't and you'd get to them and there'd be nothing happening.
Justin: Yeah. We'd get there and there would be no show, they would never heard of her. Some really weird stuff. What it boiled down to was that we decided she wasn't trustworthy. They decided she wasn't trustworthy and they totally tried to get away from her. So did we. So, together, we decided to continue releasing that CD on her label. But dbs had some kind of signed contract deal with her where she owned those recordings, so we couldn't repress the CD ourselves. She doesn't own our songs, but we couldn't repress it. It was very stupid.
Pat: And what it comes down to, too, if you don't trust the people enough to be friends with them, you don't want to work with them and we don't want to work with her.
SV: On a somewhat similar tangent as whether people are getting the message, do you think there's a lot of "me-too-ism" in the punk scene, as opposed to true individuality and that's a loaded questions. I admit it! (laughter)
Pat: Sure. Yes I do think there's more me-too-ism.
Justin: (laughs) That's a loaded answer.
SV: That's a great fucking answer. But [Pat's] on cold medicine so we'll let it slide.
Justin: The idea, I guess, is that punk is supposed to be about individuality and you're supposed to do your own thing. Punk is definitely an outlet that is going against the norms of society, which is what it's mostly setting out to do. When kids all have the same spiky hair -- and, sure, they do -- but I still thinks it's a major way of standing against society. I think there's a lot of copy cats and saying things to be cool but, at the same time, there's still a statement to be made in it and I think there's some validity to it. I think a lot of the kids are at least trying, whether it's totally realistic that it's a totally individualistic thing or not…
Pat: I have a comment on that too that punk rock's been around for 20 whatever years and I think it's gone past the "oh my god, look how crazy that is" to…
SV: It's become a part of the mainstream.
Pat: But it's become a community of people who are choosing to live in a certain way and some friends of ours who are older talk about the "punknoentric" view and stuff like that, where we've created a society that is separate from the mainstream in some ways and some ways they're very similar. But it's not as much, "wow, this craziness." There's a group of people who are over there and they're different from everybody else and they do their thing.
Justin: I have to agree with that.
SV: One of the times I saw you, you mentioned a friend of yours who had died of AIDS because she couldn't afford the medication. Tell me that story because that was really sad. It pissed me off, too, because one of my pet issues is the whole health insurance industry and lack of coverage for many people.
Justin: Right. Definitely. Well, just the fact that she was HIV positive and had a hard time getting medications that she needed to held fight the AIDS virus because she's a poor person and didn't have any health insurance. She pretty much just relied on donations and things like that. The problem is these drug companies charge so much money for these drugs and they make so much money and the availability of them is so limited. You have to have so many resources to get them. It's really just rape. They're totally ripping people off. People who are in a really bad situation.
SV: That's the problem -- a lot of hospitals are being taken over by for-profit corporations.
Justin: I think all hospitals should be non-profit. Absolutely.
SV: That's not the movement in this country, unfortunately.
Pat: (sarcastically) I'm not going to pay for somebody who doesn’t work to get health care. That's socialism! That's almost communism! It's got an "ism" on the end. We can't have that… (laughter)
Justin: Yeah, she finally did die. But, luckily, there were a lot of non-profit organizations that were willing to help. It doesn’t make your life any easier. That's such a crazy disease to have and it's such a crazy way to have to survive and then to have to fight all this red tape and fight so hard for help. It seems so wrong that the government and society, in general, cares so little.
Pat: And it's also interesting that the social aspects of that disease, specifically, lend themselves to people not wanting to help.
SV: "They got themselves into it…"
Pat: "Their lifestyle choice, their sexuality." If they had been moral they wouldn't have had that.
Justin: 'Cause they always assume that you're gay and now I think the biggest group of people being infected are heterosexual women. It's definitely a big problem.
SV: Let's see how I can phrase this one -- you really get riled up on stage. (imitates Justin) "this fuckin' song is about how the fuckin'…" Not to play devil's advocate or anything, but don't you think a subtler discourse might be more effective or do you really feel that people need to get hit over the head like that?
Justin: Well, I just can't help it. It's cheesy as fuck to say but, you know that show with the Judge?
SV: What, Judge Judy?
Justin: Right, like that.
SV: I watched it once for about five minutes. That was more than enough.
Justin: Well, when I was in high school, I never went to school. I skipped like three days a week. I was always getting sick. I would sit home and watch the Judge all the time. I loved that show. It was hilarious, it was really cheesy. And there was this one episode with this woman and she dressed up in a nun's costume. She was a rocker… you know, "rock 'n rule!" and it was some divorce dispute. She wanted rights to her child or something and they were arguing that she shouldn't have rights to her child. There's a scene where the judge says, "how can you do this to yourself? This is terrible," and she's like, "Well, I just get on stage and the rock starts happening and the blood starts flowwwwing!" (laughter) It was so funny -- I was laughing my ass off, because it was so cheesy. But it's so weird that, years later, I'm playing and that's just what happens. I get totally psyched and I don't really enjoy myself if I hold it back. I just have to let go. So it's not so much like a thought out thing, where I'm going to go up there and piss everybody off and yell at everybody. It just kind of happens. I've had comments from people that it's a good thing and I've had comments that it's a bad thing so I just have to go out and do my thing and hope that people don't think I'm a total cheeseball for it. There's not much I can do about it.