Responses to the

Eternal Security Page

Thanks to all that take the time to respond to the web pages.

John,

Thanks for you letter in response to the Eternal Security page on the Web Site. I appreciate your comments and would like to clarify a few points in regard to you letter. I think the best way to do this is to make these comments under the paragraph in question. Thanks again for your response, Adam

FIRST I COMMEND YOU ON YOUR STUDY OF THE BIBLE AND THE SERVICE THAT YOU ARE GOING TO BE PERFORMING. I HAVE JUST FINISHED READING YOUR EXTENSIVE WRITING ON THE SECURITY OF THE BELIEVER. THERE ARE SOME THOUGHTS THAT I WOULD LIKE TO SHARE WITH YOU.

ACCORDING TO MY THINKING IF YOU HAVE ACCEPTED CHRIST AND ARE A BELIEVER YOU HAVE ETERNAL SECURITY. IF A CHILD DOES NOT KNOW DAY TO DAY WHO HIS FATHER IS HE IS TOTALLY CONFUSED. IF HE IS GOOD ONE DAY AND BAD THE NEXT HE IS OUT. IF ONE DAY HIS FATHER LOVES HIM AND THE NEXT DAY HE DOESN'T THE CHILD WOULD BE AN EMOTIONAL WRECK. THE FACT IS THAT ONCE YOU ACCEPT CHRIST YOU ARE BORN INTO THE FAMILY OF GOD. IF YOU ARE IN JESUS YOU ARE A PART OF THE FAMILY.

I believe that there is a big mis-conception about the side of believing in the possibility of losing one's Salvation. I tried to clarify it in the study that it was not a matter of making one mistake and you are out and then repenting and you are back in. I do not believe that is the case at all and feel that if someone teaches this, they are in grave error. It is not a matter of the child not knowing who his Father is from one day to the next. I have complete assurance of my Salvation and know for a fact where my destiny is and if the view is explained properly assurance is never a question. It definitely is not a question of the Father's love, and I tried to make that very clear in the study also. Just as in the story of the Prodigal Son, the Father's love was never in question, but the Son's obedience and true repentance. I totally agree that once a person accepts Christ that they become part of the family of God. The Prodigal Son never ceased to be "a son" and in the parable of the servants that I used I pointed out that they never ceased to be "servants", and the five foolish virgins never ceased to be "virgins". But the bottom line in each of the cases (aside from the Prodigal Son) was that they lost their position and inheritance associated with those titles they bore.

TO BE A PRODUCTIVE CHRISTIAN YOU NEED TO KNOW THAT YOUR FUTURE IS SECURE. IF YOU DO A GOOD WORK YOU NEED TO KNOW YOUR FUTURE IS SECURE AND NOT WONDER DAY TO DAY IF YOU ARE ONE OF GOD'S CHILDREN OR NOT. FIRST WE NEED TO DEFINE A CHILD OF GOD.

WHO IS A BELIEVER? A BELIEVER IS ONE WHO HAS RECEIVED JESUS INTO HIS HEART BY FAITH. A BELIEVER IS ONE WHO HAS TOTALLY TRUSTED JESUS FOR HIS SALVATION.

THIS PERSON IS BORN AGAIN, JOHN 3:3, AND HAS BEEN MADE A PARTAKER OF THE DIVINE NATURE, 2 PET:1:4

As I mentioned above, you can be secure and should be secure in your eternal destiny even if you believe that there is a possibility of losing that inheritance by disobedience. Paul made it very clear in Romans 7: 14-25, that even though we are made partakers of that divine nature, we will always have this battle while on this earth with the physical nature as well. We will battle with the sinful nature all of our physical life. True, through Jesus and being born again we have the power to overcome that sinful nature. We also have the freedom to choose to exercise that power or allow ourselves to become captive to the sinful flesh. James 1:13-15, makes it very clear that "every" man is tempted by the "sinful flesh" which resides in each of us, and if we allow those "fleshly desires" to overcome us and we indulge in them that we give birth to sin. We are also told that we are able to continue in that sin and it will lead to death. I agree with you that Christians will not desire to give in to these sinful desires, but there will be times that it will happen. The question is not whether or not a Christian will fall into an occasional sin but can a Christian continue in that sin? That question I believe is answered by James and in the fact that just because we are born again we have not lost our ability to choose.

WHAT ABOUT THOSE WHO APPEAR TO BE SAVED BUT HAVE NO INTEREST IN SPIRITUAL THINGS? TO MY THINKING THEY WERE NEVER SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE. THEY MAY HAVE MADE A PUBLIC PROFESSION OF FAITH, BAPTIZED AND ATTEND CHURCH, THEY MAY HAVE LOOKED CHRISTIAN BUT THEY WORSHIP THE WORLD. JESUS SPOKE OF THIS TYPE IN MATT. 7:22-23. IF THEY LEFT THEIR FAITH AND WENT BACK TO THE WORLD THEY WERE NEVER SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE. 1 JOHN 2:19. THEY DIDN'T LOOSE THEIR SALVATION, THEY DIDN'T HAVE IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. EXAMPLE, JUDAS.

I have heard this statement hundreds of times in regard to this topic of Salvation; "they were never saved to start with". This is an easy solution, but I do not believe it is a valid point scripturally according to all of the scriptures I listed in the study. Example; in the parable of the Virgins in Matthew 25, where does it say that the foolish ones were not virgins? In the different parables of the servants where does is say that they were not servants? In Revelation chapters 2 & 3 who is being addressed, the churches, and what is said in 3: 5 & 16? In 1 Timothy 4:1, how can one depart from the faith, if they were never a part of it? And many more examples which apparently invalidate the statement above.

ROM 8:38-39. IF YOU BELIEVE IN THE WORD OF GOD YOU HAVE ETERNAL SECURITY. ROM. 4:21 GUARANTEES HIS PROMISE. THE WORK STARTED WITH GOD. HE IS THE ONE WHO BROUGHT CONVICTION. HE IS THE CONVERTOR AND HE IS THE COMPLETER. HE ALWAYS FINISHES WHAT HE STARTS. IF TO BELIEVE WE CAN BE LOST AGAIN IT DEFEATS THE ETERNAL PURPOSE. ROM. 8:29-30 SAYS THAT WE ARE PREDESTINED FOR A HEAVENLY HOME TO BE LIKE JESUS. GOD PLANNED IT, HE PREDESTINED IT, HE BROUGHT IT TO PASS. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BE SAVED AND BE LOST AGAIN BECAUSE IT DESTROYS THE PLAN OF GOD.

HE SEES US ALREADY IN HEAVEN. IF EITHER WE OR SATAN COULD CHANGE THAT IT WOULD MEAN THAT GOD IS NOT ALL POWERFUL. HE WOULD CEASE TO EXIST.

In the scripture Rom. 8: 38-39, I agree totally that Nothing can separate us from the love of God and from God's side that is true. God's love for us will never change, that is a fact, but our choice to abide in that love is still our choice. A perfect example of this is in John 15: 1-10, it is clear in vs.2 that it is the "branch" that is being addressed, and it is the "branch" in vs.6 that is cast away not the fruit. The reason it is cast away is because in did not "abide" in Him. I agree 100% that on God's part of His promise it will never falter, but on man's side of it Jesus made it clear in vs.6 & 10 that it is dependent upon our "abiding" and "obedience" to His commands. We also have to be careful how we view "predestination" so that we do not give the impression that one has been predestined to heaven or hell. God does desire that "ALL" men be saved and predestined that avenue by the death of Christ before the foundation of the world. However, God never took away man's freedom of "choice" and "will". According to the eternal security belief you cease to have a "choice" once you are saved. I do not see how it is belittling God or His plan for Salvation to allow His creation the freedom to choose to remain in the Eternal gift or not. When a third of the angels "chose" to follow Lucifer out of heaven, it did not destroy God's eternal plans, nor does it have that effect when man chooses to remain or leave the eternal gift. God never has desired to have robots for servants and that is the greatness about Him, it is all based on love and willingness to be a servant. God's greatness and Sovereignty is not diminished by the fact that He allows us to choose, and God's power is still the same which ever way we choose.

CHRIST MADE US PERFECT BY HIS SACRIFICE. NOT FOR A TIME BUT FOREVER. HE DID NOT MAKE A DOWN PAYMENT ON OUT SALVATION. HE PAID THE DEBT IN FULL. WHEN I WAS SAVED I BECAME A NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST. WE ARE NOT PERFECT IN THE FLESH BUT IN THE SOUL. IF I SIN I WILL BE CHASTENED. ROM. 4:5-8 WE ARE NOT SAVED BY GOOD WORKS AND WE CANNOT LOSE SALVATION BY BAD WORKS EITHER. WE ARE THEREFORE SAVED BY THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST. WE HAVE BEEN DECLARED PERFECT AS WE SEE IN 1 COR. 6:9-11.

2 COR. 5:17 SAYS THAT WHEN WE RECEIVE CHRIST WE BECOME A NEW CREATION AND BECOME A PART OF CHRIST. THE ONLY WAY TO LOSE THAT RELATIONSHIP WITH THE FATHER IS FOR THE SON TO DO SO FIRST. LOOK AT DAVID. HE SINNED MANY TIMES BUT STILL WAS A FAVORITE OF GOD. LOOK AT PETER. HE DID THE UNTHINKABLE IN HIS DENIAL AND DESERTION OF CHRIST IN THE TIME OF CRISIS. CHRIST DECLARED HIM TO BE ORIGINATOR OF THE CHURCH. SO WE WERE GIVEN ETERNAL LIFE WHEN WE WERE SAVED. GOD'S POWER IS THE GREATEST POWER IN THE UNIVERSE AND IT IS THE POWER THAT KEEPS US SAVED. IF SATAN COULD WREST ONE PERSON OUT OF THE HANDS OF GOD HE COULD HAVE THEM ALL. JOHN 10: 28-29. IN JOHN 10:28 THE WORD NEVER IS FOUND FOUR TIMES IN THE GREEK.

OUME=NOT AT ALL, BY NO MEANS EIS=TIME, PLACE, PURPOSE

HO=MALE OR FEMALE

AION=PERPETUALLY OR ETERNALLY

A TRANSLATION OF THIS IS "AND I GIVE UNTO THEE ETERNAL LIFE AND THEY SHALL NOT AT ALL, BY ANY MEANS, IN ANY CASE, IN ANY PLACE, AT ANY TIME, FOR ANY PURPOSE, WHETHER THEY BE MALE OR FEMALE EVER PERISH. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN LIFE IS SALVATION. THIS REQUIRES A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD THROUGH HIS SON CHRIST. THIS DETERMINES OUR ETERNAL DESTINY. THE NEXT MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THE ASSURANCE THAT WE HAVE BEEN LIBERATED FROM THE DANGERS OF ETERNAL HELL.

I agree 100% with the verses in John 10:28-29, but I would like to ask one question; where in those verses does it say that we have no choice to walk out of that hand? I will never disagree that God is all powerful, but as I said before I cannot believe that God would use that power to create robots that have no choice to serve Him. If you notice from the start of my response to you, I have never used the words "works" regarding this choice. It is not about "works" and never will be; the scriptures are clear that our works and righteousness are nothing more than filthy rags in God's presence. We do works out of obedience and love, but we choose to do them and are not forced are we? I agree that God will chasten us and do everything possible to bring us back home (just as the Prodigal Son) but it is always ultimately our "choice" to come back home or remain in sin. According to what you are saying, the Prodigal Son never had a choice about coming back home, and David never had a choice about listening to the Prophet Nathan. I believe they did have a choice and God illustrated their choice in these stories to show us the great mercy of the Father. I also believe God gave us the examples that were noted earlier (foolish virgins, servants, etc...) to show us the other side of the choice.

2 PET. 2:20-22 ARE VERSES THAT MANY TAKE TO MEAN A LOSS OF SALVATION. IN FACT THEY ARE JUST THE OPPOSITE. THEY TELL OF A PERSON WHO TURNS OVER A NEW LEAF WITHOUT RECEIVING A NEW LIFE. THEY MAKE ALL KINDS OF CHANGES, BECOME CHURCH MEMBERS, SERVE, AND APPEAR TO CONSECRATED CHRISTIANS. THIS IS RELIGION WITHOUT REDEMPTION. THIS TYPE OF PERSON CANNOT MAINTAIN THE ILLUSION OF THE CHRISTIAN LIFE. THEY WILL EVENTUALLY REVERT BACK TO WHERE AND WHAT THEY WERE. THE TRUE CHARACTER WILL EVENTUALLY EMERGE. A SINFUL LIFE CANNOT BE CONQUERED BY REFORMATION. THEY WILL REVERT TO WHAT THEY WERE. WORSE THEN BEFORE. THE TRUE NATURE WILL ALWAYS COME OUT. A PIG CAN BE BATHED, RIBBONED AND WHEN HE IS RELEASED HE WILL RETURN TO THE MUD THAT HE ENJOYS. MAN CAN LOOK GOOD IN CHURCH BUT LIVE IN SIN IN THE WORLD. HE WILL ALWAYS FOLLOW HIS NATURE. A NEW NATURE WILL WANT TO AVOID SIN. WE ARE NOT REFORMED WE ARE TRANSFORMED.

If you notice I did not use the scripture 2 Peter 2:20 in my study because I agree that it is not speaking of the topic of eternal security. I also do not think that this scripture nullifies the other scriptures that speak clearly on the subject.

MANY PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT MATT. 24:11-13 MEANS THAT ENDURANCE LEADS TO SALVATION AND THE LACK OF ENDURANCE A LOSS OF SALVATION. TOTALLY BACKWARDS. A CHRISTIAN IS NOT SAVED BECAUSE HE ENDURES HE ENDURES BECAUSE HE IS SAVED. AGAIN COMPARE PETER IN LUKE 22:31-32. CHRIST TOLD HIM THAT HE WOULD FAIL. HE DID FAIL BUT HIS FAITH DID NOT. WE MAY WANDER BUT CHRIST KEEPS DRAWING US BACK. MANY ARE LIKE THE SEED ON STONY GROUND. THEY WITHER AND DIE. TRUE FAITH ENDURES AND PRODUCES FRUIT. REMEMBER THE WHEAT AND TARES? THEY WILL BE SEPARATED BY CHRIST AT THE PROPER TIME.

I agree 100% with your statement about endurance but I would like to look

at the parable in Matthew 13 about the sower and the seed. In vs. 18-23 Jesus explains the parable of the first nine verses. According to vs.20 the seed on the stony place was "received" but sought root in himself and did not last. It also says that this person received tribulation and persecution because of the Word; doesn't sound like someone that was not saved to start with. In vs. 22 He explains about one that receives the Word among thorns, but notice what is said, "he becometh unfruitful". It is apparent that he was fruitful at the start, which couldn't be true if he was never saved to start with right?

AGAIN IN JOHN 15:5-8 AN ILLUSTRATION IS USED TO TEACH A PICTURE OF A CHRISTIAN WHO HAS CEASED TO LIVE FOR CHRIST AND IS CUT OFF AND CAST INTO HELL. IN TRUTH JESUS IS NOT TALKING ABOUT SALVATION. HE IS TALKING ABOUT FRUIT BEARING. HIS WHOLE POINT IS THAT A HEALTHY ABIDING CHRISTIAN BEARS FRUIT AND A WEAK CHRISTIAN BEARS NO FRUIT. THIS DOES NOT TALK OF LOSS OF SALVATION BUT THE LOSS OF REWARDS.

I hate to be a stickler with words and I am not trying to be debative, but you make the statement twice above that this is a "Christian" being discussed. As I mentioned above about this section of scripture, it is clearly speaking about the "branch" being cast in the fire and not the "fruit". I will agree that the reason for the casting of the "branch" is because of lack of fruit bearing which is a direct result of disobedience.

JOHN 3:16. "FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON THAT WHO SO EVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHOULD HAVE ETERNAL LIFE." LOOK AT THE LAST HALF OF THIS VERSE WHERE IT SAYS IF YOU BELIEVE YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. IF WE ACCEPT THIS VERSE AS TRUTH THEN WE CANNOT SAY THAT WE LOSE THAT WHICH GOD HAS PROMISED FOR ETERNITY. IF YOU ARE SAVED YOU ARE ETERNALLY SAVED. SO BE GLAD AND REJOICE IN IT.

MUCH OF THE ABOVE INFORMATION WAS TAKEN FROM A SERMON THAT I READ ON THE INTERNET. I HAVE ADDED MY OWN THOUGHTS WITH THOSE IN THE SERMON.

JWS8924

John,

I am grateful for your letter and hope that we can discuss this openly without harboring any animosity. Thanks again for your response. Adam