INTERVIEW WITH KARL MARX
by H.
Chicago Tribune, January 5 1879.
London, December 18 [1878] -- In a little villa at Haverstock Hill, the
northwest portion of London, lives Karl Marx, the cornerstone of modern
socialism. He was exiled from his native country -- Germany -- in 1844, for
propagating revolutionary theories. In 1848, he returned, but in a few
months was again exiled. He then took up his abode in Paris, but his
political theories procured his expulsion from that city in 1849, and since
that year his headquarters have been in London. His convictions have caused
him trouble from the beginning. Judging from the appearance of his home, the
certainly have not brought him affluence. Persistently during all these
years he has advocated his views with an earnestness which undoubtedly
springs from a firm belief in them, and, however much we may deprecate their
propagation, we cannot but respect to a certain extent the self-denial of
the now venerable exile.
Your correspondent has called upon him twice or thrice, and each time the
Doctor was found in his library, with a book in one hand and a cigarette in
the other. He must be over seventy years of age. [Marx was sixty.] His
physique is well knit, massive, erect. He has the head of a man of
intellect, and the features of a cultivated Jew. His hair and beard are
long, and iron-gray in color. His eyes are glittering black, shaded by a
pair of bushy eyebrows. To a stranger he shows extreme caution. A foreigner
can generally gain admission; but the ancient-looking German woman [Helene
Demuth] who waits upon visitors has instructions to admit none who hail from
the Fatherland, unless they bring letters of introduction. Once into his
library, however, and having fixed his one eyeglass in the corner of his
eye, in order to take your intellectual breadth and depth, so to speak, he
loses that self-restraint, and unfolds to you a knowledge of men and things
throughout the world apt to interest one. And his conversation does not run
in one groove, but is as varied as are the volumes upon his library shelves.
A man can generally be judged by the books he reads, and you can form your
own conclusions when I tell you a casual glance revealed Shakespeare,
Dickens, Thackeray, Moliere, Racine, Montaigne, Bacon, Goethe, Voltaire,
Paine; English, American, French blue books; works political and
philosophical in Russian, German, Spanish, Italian, etc., etc. During my
conversation I was struck with
His Intimacy with American Questions
which have been uppermost during the past twenty years. His knowledge of
them, and the surprising accuracy with which he criticized our national and
state legislation, impressed upon my mind the fact that he must have derived
his information from inside sources. But, indeed, this knowledge is not
confined to America, but is spread over the face of Europe. When speaking of
his hobby -- socialism -- he does not indulge in those melodramatic flights
generally attributed to him, but dwells upon his utopian plans for "the
emancipation of the human race" with a gravity and an earnestness indicating
a firm conviction in the realization of his theories, if not in this
century, at least in the next.
Perhaps Dr. Karl Marx is better known in America as the author of Capital,
and the founder of the International Society, or at least its most prominent
pillar. In the interview which follows, you will see what he says of this
Society as it at present exists. However, in the meantime I will give you a
few extracts from the printed general rules of
The International Society
published in 1871, by order of the General Council, from which you can form
an impartial judgment of its aims and ends. The Preamble sets forth "that
the emancipation of the working classes must be conquered by the working
classes themselves; that the struggle for the emancipation of the working
classes means not a struggle for class privileges and monopolies, but for
equal rights and duties, and the abolition of all class rule; that the
economical subjection of the man of labor to the monopolizer of the means of
labor -- that is, the sources of life -- lies at the bottom of servitude in
all its forms, of all social misery, mental degradation, and political
dependence; that all efforts aiming at" the universal emancipation of the
working classes "have hitherto failed from want of solidarity between the
manifold divisions of labor in each country," and the Preamble calls for
"the immediate combination of the still-disconnected movements." It goes on
to say that the International Association acknowledges "no rights without
duties, no duties without rights" -- thus making every member a worker. the
Association was formed at London "to afford a central medium of
communication and cooperation between the workingmen's societies in the
different countries," aiming at the same end, namely: "the protection,
advancement, and complete emancipation of the working classes." "Each
member," the document further says, "of the International Association, on
removing his domicile from one country to another, will receive the
fraternal support of the associated workingmen."
The Society Consists
of a general Congress, which meets annually, a general Council, which forms
"an international agency between the different national and local groups of
the Association, so that the workingmen in one country can be constantly
informed of the movements of their class in every other country." This
Council receives and acts upon the applications of new branches or sections
to join the International, decides differences arising between the sections,
and, in fact, to use an American phrase, "runs the machine." The expenses of
the General Council are defrayed by an annual contribution of an English
penny per member. Then come the federal councils or committees, and local
sections, in the various countries. The federal councils are bound to send
one report at least every month to the General Council, and every three
months a report on the administration and financial state of their
respective branches. whenever attacks against the International are
published, the nearest branch or committee is bound to send at once a copy
of such publication to the General Council. The formation of female branches
among the working classes is recommended.
The General Council
comprises the following: R. Applegarth, M.T. Boon, Frederick Bradnick, G.H.
Buttery, E. Delahaye, Eugene Dupont (on mission), William Hales, G. Harris,
Hurliman, Jules Johannard, Harriet Law, Frederick Lessner, Lochner, Charles
Longuet, C. Martin, Zevy Maurice, Henry Mayo, George Milner, Charles Murray,
Pfander, John Pach, Ruhl Sadler, Cowell Stepney, Alfred Taylor, W.
Townshend, E. Vaillant, John Weston. The corresponding secretaries for the
various countries are: Leo Frankel, for Austria and Hungary; A. Herman,
Belgium; T. Mottershead, Denmark; A. Serrailler, France; Karl Marx, Germany
and Russia; Charles Rochat, Holland; J.P. McDonell, Ireland; Frederick
Engels, Italy and Spain; Walery Wroblewski, Poland; Hermann Jung,
Switzerland; J.G. Eccarius, United States; Le Moussu, for French branches of
United States.
During my visit to Dr. Marx, I alluded to the platform given by J.C.
Bancroft Davis in his official report of 1877 as the clearest and most
concise exposition of socialism that I had seen. He said it was taken from
the report of the socialist reunion at Gotha, Germany, in May, 1875. The
translation was incorrect, he said, and he
Volunteered Correction
which I append as he dictated:
First: Universal, direct, and secret suffrage for all males over twenty
years, for all elections, municipal and state.
Second: Direct legislation by the people. War and peace to be made by direct
popular vote.
Third: Universal obligation to militia duty. No standing army.
Fourth: Abolition of all special legislation regarding press laws and public
meetings.
Fifth: Legal remedies free of expense. Legal proceedings to be conducted by
the people.
Sixth: Education to be by the state -- general, obligatory, and free.
Freedom of science and religion.
Seventh: All indirect taxes to be abolished. Money to be raised for state
and municipal purposes by direct progressive income tax.
Eighth: Freedom of combination among the working classes.
Ninth: The legal day of labor for men to be defined. The work of women to be
limited, and that of children to be abolished.
Tenth: Sanitary laws for the protection of life and health of laborers, and
regulation of their dwelling and places of labor, to be enforced by persons
selected by them.
Eleventh: Suitable provision respecting prison labor. In Mr. Bancroft Davis'
report there is
A Twelfth Clause
the most important of all, which reads: "State aid and credit for industrial
societies, under democratic direction." I asked the Doctor why he omitted
this, and he replied:
"When the reunion took place at Gotha, in 1875, there existed a division
among the Social Democrats. The one wing were partisans of Lassalle, the
others those who had accepted in general the program of the International
organization, and were called the Eisenach party. The twelfth point was not
placed on the platform, but placed in the general introduction by way of
concession to the Lassallians. Afterwards it was never spoken of. Mr. Davis
does not say that is was placed in the program as a compromise having no
particular significance, but gravely puts it in as one of the cardinal
principles of the program."
"But," I said, "socialists generally look upon the transformation of the
means of labor into the common property of society as the grand climax of
the movement."
"Yes; we say that this will be the outcome of the movement, but it will be a
question of time, of education, and the institution of higher social
status."
"This platform," I remarked, "applies only to Germany and one or two other
countries."
"Ah!" he returned, "if you draw your conclusions from nothing but this, you
know nothing of the activity of the party. Many of its points have no
significance outside of Germany. Spain, Russia, England, and America have
platforms suited to their peculiar difficulties. The only similarity in them
is the end to be attained."
"And that is the supremacy of labor?"
"That is the
Emancipation of Labor"
"Do European socialists look upon the movement in America as a serious one?"
"Yes: it is the natural outcome of the country's development. It has been
said that the movement has been improved by foreigners. When labor movements
became disagreeable in England, fifty years ago, the same thing was said;
and that was long before socialism was spoken of. In American, since 1857
only has the labor movement become conspicuous. Then trade unions began to
flourish; then trades assemblies were formed, in which the workers in
different industries united; and after that came national labor unions. If
you consider this chronological progress, you will see that socialism has
sprung up in that country without the aid of foreigners, and was merely
caused by the concentration of capital and the changed relations between the
workmen and employers."
"Now," asked your correspondent, "what has socialism done so far?"
"Two things," he returned. "Socialists have shown the general universal
struggle between capital and labor --
The Cosmopolitan Chapter
in one word -- and consequently tried to bring about an understanding
between the workmen in the different countries, which became more necessary
as the capitalists became more cosmopolitan in hiring labor, pitting foreign
against native labor not only in America, but in england, France, and
Germany. International relations sprang up at once between workingmen in the
three different countries, showing that socialism was not merely a local,
but an international problem, to be solved by the international action of
workmen. The working classes move spontaneously, without knowing what the
ends of the movement will be. The socialists invent no movement, but merely
tell the workmen what its character and its ends will be."
"Which means the overthrowing of the present social system," I interrupted.
"This system of land and capital in the hands of employers, on the one
hand," he continued, "and the mere working power in the hands of the
laborers to sell a commodity, we claim is merely a historical phase, which
will pass away and give place to
A Higher Social Condition
We see everywhere a division of society. The antagonism of the two classes
goes hand in hand with the development of the industrial resources of modern
countries. From a socialistic standpoint the means already exist to
revolutionize the present historical phase. Upon trade unions, in many
countries, have been built political organizations. In America the need of
an independent workingmen's party has been made manifest. They can no longer
trust politicians. Rings and cliques have seized upon the legislatures, and
politics has been made a trade. But America is not alone in this, only its
people are more decisive than Europeans. Things come to the surface quicker.
There is less cant and hypocrisy that there is on this side of the ocean."
I asked him to give me a reason for the rapid growth of the socialistic
party in Germany, when he replied: "The present socialistic party came last.
Theirs was not the utopian scheme which made headway in France and England.
The German mind is given to theorizing, more than that of other peoples.
From previous experience the Germans evolved something practical. This
modern capitalistic system, you must recollect, is quite new in Germany in
comparison to other states. Questions were raised which had become almost
antiquated in France and England, and political influences to which these
states had yielded sprang into life when the working classes of Germany had
become imbued with socialistic theories. therefore, from the beginning
almost of modern industrial development, they have formed an
Independent Political Party
They had their own representatives in the German parliament. There was no
party to oppose the policy of the government, and this devolved upon them.
To trace the course of the party would take a long time; but I may say this:
that, if the middle classes of Germany were not the greatest cowards,
distinct from the middle classes of America and England, all the political
work against the government should have been done by them."
I asked him a question regarding the numerical strength of the Lassallians
in the ranks of the Internationalists.
"The party of Lassalle," he replied, "does not exist. Of course there are
some believers in our ranks, but the number is small. Lassalle anticipated
our general principles. When he commenced to move after the reaction of
1848, he fancied that he could more successfully revive the movement by
advocating cooperation of the workingmen in industrial enterprises. It was
to stir them into activity. he looked upon this merely as a means to the
real end of the movement. I have letters from his to this effect."
"You would call it his nostrum?"
"Exactly. He called upon Bismarck, told him what he designed, and Bismarck
encouraged Lassalle's course at that time in every possible way."
"What was his object?"
"He wished to use the working classes as a set-off against the middle
classes who instigated the troubles of 1848."
"It is said that you are the head and front of socialism, Doctor, and from
your villa here pull the wires of all the associations, revolutions, etc.,
now going on. What do you say about it?"
The old gentleman smiled: "I know it.
It Is Very Absurd
yet it has a comic side. For two months previous to the attempt of Hoedel,
Bismarck complained in his North German Gazette that I was in league with
Father Beck, the leader of the Jesuit movement, and that we were keeping the
socialist movement in such a condition that he could do nothing with it."
"But your International Society in London directs the movement?"
"The International Society has outlived its usefulness and exists no longer.
It did exist and direct the movement; but the growth of socialism of late
years has been so great that its existence has become unnecessary.
Newspapers have been started in the various countries. These are
interchanged. That is about the only connection the parties in the different
countries have with one another. The International Society, in the first
instance, was created to bring the workmen together, and show the
advisability of effecting organization among their various nationalities.
The interests of each party in the different countries have no similarity.
This specter of the Internationalist leaders sitting at London is a mere
invention. It is true that we dictated to foreign societies when the
Internationalist organization was first accomplished. We were forced to
exclude some sections in New York, among them one in which Madam Woodhull
was conspicuous. that was in 1871. there are several American politicians --
I will not name them -- who wish to trade in the movement. They are well
known to American socialists."
"You are your followers, Dr. Marx, have been credited with all sorts of
incendiary speeches against religion. Of course you would like to see the
whole system destroyed, root and branch."
"We know," he replied after a moment's hesitation, "that violent measures
against religion are nonsense; but this is an opinion: as socialism grows,
Religion Will Disappear
Its disappearance must be done by social development, in which education
must play a part."
"The Reverend Joseph Cook, of Boston -- you know him --"
"We have heard of him, a very badly informed man upon the subject of
socialism."
"In a lecture lately upon the subject, he said, 'Karl Marx is credited now
with saying that, in the United States, and in Great Britain, and perhaps in
France, a reform of labor will occur without bloody revolution, but that
blood must be shed in Germany, and in Russia, and in Italy, and in
Austria.'"
"No socialist," remarked the Doctor, smiling, "need predict that there will
be a bloody revolution in Russia, Germany, Austria, and possibly Italy if
the Italians keep on in the policy they are now pursuing. The deeds of the
French Revolution may be enacted again in those countries. That is apparent
to any political student. But those revolutions will be made by the
majority. No revolution can be made by a party,
But By a Nation"
"The reverend gentleman alluded to," I remarked, "gave an extract from a
letter which he said you addressed to the Communists of Paris in 1871. Here
it is: 'We are as yet but 3,000,000 at most. In twenty years we shall be
50,000,000 -- 100,000,000 perhaps. Then the world will belong to us, for it
will be not only Paris, Lyon, Marseilles, which will rise against odious
capital, but Berlin, Munich, Dresden, London, liverpool, Manchester,
Brussels, St. Petersburg, New York -- in short, the whole world. And before
this new insurrection, such as history has not yet known, the past will
disappear like a hideous nightmare; for the popular conflagration, kindled
at a hundred points at once, will destroy even its memory!' Now, Doctor, I
suppose you admit the authorship of that extract?"
"I never wrote a word of it. I never write
Such Melodramatic Nonsense
I am very careful what I do write. That was put in Le Figaro, over my
signature, about that time. There were hundreds of the same kind of letters
flying about them. I wrote to the London Times and declared they were
forgeries; but if I denied everything that has been said and written of me,
I would require a score of secretaries."
"But you have written in sympathy with the Paris Communists?"
"Certainly I have, in consideration of what was written of them in leading
articles; but the correspondence from Paris in ENglish papers is quite
sufficient to refute the blunders propagated in editorials. The Commune
killed only about sixty people; Marshal MacMahon and his slaughtering army
killed over 60,000. There has never been a movement so slandered as that of
the Commune."
"Well, then, to carry out the principles of socialism do its believers
advocate assassination and bloodshed?"
"No great movement," Karl answered, "has ever been inaugurated
Without Bloodshed
The independence of America was won by bloodshed, napoleon captured France
through a bloody process, and he was overthrown by the same means. Italy,
England, Germany, and every other country gives proof of this, and as for
assassination," he went on to say, "it is not a new thing, I need scarcely
say. Orsini tried to kill Napoleon; kings have killed more than anybody
else; the Jesuits have killed; the Puritans killed at the time of Cromwell.
These deeds were all done or attempted before socialism was born. Every
attempt, however, now made upon a royal or state individual is attributed to
socialism. The socialists would regret very much the death of the German
Emperor at the present time. He is very useful where he is; and bismarck has
done more for the cause than any other statesman, by driving things to
extremes."
I asked Dr. Marx
What He Thought of Bismarck
He replied that "Napoleon was considered a genius until he fell; then he was
called a fool. Bismarck will follow in his wake. He began by building up a
despotism under the plea of unification. his course has been plain to all.
The last move is but an attempted imitation of a coup d'etat; but it will
fail. The socialists of Germany, as of France, protested against the war of
1870 as merely dynastic. They issued manifestoes foretelling the German
people, if they allowed the pretended war of defense to be turned into a war
of conquest, they would be punished by the establishment of military
despotism and the ruthless oppression of the productive masses. The
Social-Democratic party in Germany, thereupon holding meetings and
publishing manifestoes for an honorable peace with France, were at once
prosecuted by the Prussian Government, and many of the leaders imprisoned.
Still their deputies alone dared to protest, and very vigorously too, in the
German Reichstag, against the forcible annexation of French provinces.
However, Bismarck carried his policy by force, and people spoke of the
genius of a Bismarck. The war was fought, and when he could make no
conquests, he was called upon for original ideas, and he has signally
failed. The people began to lose faith in him. His popularity was on the
wane. He needs money, and the state needs it. Under a sham constitution he
has taxed the people for his military and unification plans until he can tax
them no longer, and now he seeks to do it with no constitution at all. For
the purpose of levying as he chooses, he has raised the ghost of socialism,
and has done everything in his power
To Create an Emeute"
"You have continual advice from Berlin?"
"Yes," he said; "my friends keep me well advised. It is in a perfectly quiet
state, and Bismarck is disappointed. He has expelled forty-eight prominent
men -- among them Deputies Hasselman and Fritsche and Rackow, Bauman, and
Adler, of the Freie Presse. These men kept the workmen of Berlin quiet.
Bismarck knew this. He also knew that there were 75,000 workmen in that city
upon the verge of starvation. Once those leaders were gone, he was confident
that the mob would rise, and that would be the cue for a carnival of
slaughter. The screws would then be put upon the whole German Empire; his
petty theory of blood and iron would then have full sway, and taxation could
be levied to any extent. So far no emeute has occurred, and he stands today
confounded at the situation and the ridicule of all statesmen."
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