Interview With Abdullah Ocalan, President Of The Kurdistan
Workers Party (PKK)
[Editor's note: The following interview appeared in the January
1999 issue of 'Middle East Insight' magazine. We thank Tanya
Goudsouzian, its Assistant Editor, for granting us permission to
reprint the article. This interview took place shortly before Mr.
Ocalan's capture.]
MEI: What are the objectives of your movement today, and how do
they compare with those of ten years ago?
Ocalan: Instead of comparing the objectives of yesterday with
those of today, we should talk about how those objectives are
becoming reality. Ten years ago, our goal was to keep the
struggle permanent within the borders of Turkey, and this
political strategy was achieved by the Kurdish uprising (or
"intifada"), as well as militantly, through guerrilla warfare.
Ten years ago, we wanted to achieve the reality of a Kurdish
nation by means of war and I believe we have achieved that goal.
For us, it is an important historic moment, as well as a
foundation for a political solution. As for now, although the
main issue on the Kurdish agenda is to bring about a political
solution peacefully, there are no changes in our ultimate goal.
Today, just like ten years ago, we are after a solution, which
will be formed by the free will of the Kurdish people. But,
things are rather different now than they were ten years ago.
Guerrilla warfare and "intifada" had more importance a decade
ago, whereas today, more weight is given to political dialogue
and peaceful struggle. I think we could consider that to be a
development.
MEI: What interests does the PKK have with respect to Turkey and
Iraq?
Ocalan: Your question is not very clear, but if the subject for
discussion is Kurdistan in Turkey and Iraq, it must be mentioned
that since the founding of the Turkish Republic, North and South
Kurdistan have been arbitrarily divided and this division is
without sound basis. The struggles in both areas are connected. A
positive solution for the South affects the North, and a negative
approach by the South towards the North will aggravate the
conflict. Successful developments on one side may increase the
chances of success on the other side. Therefore, there are mutual
interests and expectations among Southern and Northern Kurds. It
is important to handle this situation properly; all governments
and powers that have an interest in this problem should be
extremely careful not to manipulate the two sides of Kurdistan
against each other. Looking after the interests of South
Kurdistan and not treating the North in the same way, in reality,
will only mean one thing: breaking the Kurds into small pieces
and abandoning them to annihilation. The past 75 years have
proven this fact. Now it is highly important for us not to repeat
the same mistakes.
Neither the Turkish nor Iraqi government has approached the
Kurdish problem objectively. They drag the issue surreptitiously
within the narrow boundaries of a circle and make the matter
worse. This is also the case with all other Middle East countries
inhabited by Kurds. Turkey holds a key position in this matter,
enforcing pressure to the best of its capacity, so as to prevent
the Kurdish problem from being resolved. This is also true of the
Iraqi government.
We believe the solution to the democratic problems these two
countries are facing today depend on resolving the Kurdish
problem. Today, anti-democracy and the infringement of human
rights are the most immediate problems of the Turkish government.
In reality, both these problems are results of the war which is
taking place in Kurdistan.
In sum, a democratic solution to the Kurdish problem will be
a triumph for Turkish democracy. The same applies to Iraq. A
democratic solution to the Kurdish problem in Iraq will become a
triumph for Iraqi democracy. A peaceful and democratic solution
to the Kurdish problem will mark the beginning of an era of peace
and democracy in the Middle East.
MEI: What is the nature of your movement's relationship with
Syria?
Ocalan: Our party is in touch with Syrian Kurds, who are the real
source of our strength. The relationship between our party and
the Syrian government has no legal or official basis. This has
been exaggerated. Our real source of strength is the precious
help of our people, most of whom come from the North. It is not
true that the Syrian government officially recognizes our
struggle, as is claimed by others.
This is just speculation. However, Kurdish people from other
Arab countries have been contributing to our cause a great deal.
We should also add the Kurdish people who live in Lebanon to this
list. This is the source of our strength in the region.
MEI: How will your current legal and diplomatic situation affect
the direction of the PKK?
Ocalan: In Europe, I wanted to give priority to diplomatic
efforts based on law. If these efforts succeed, it will be an
important development, which will benefit all. If these
diplomatic efforts fail, we will be compelled to reset our sights
towards an objective reality reflecting military and political
war. Right now, our first priority is diplomacy, we would like to
emphasize this. But, if diplomacy fails, without a doubt, our
earlier activities, with all their intensity, will return to our
agenda.
MEI: While you were in Italy, both Turkey and Germany filed
requests for your extradition. You stand accused of killing
thousands of individuals. If you are brought to trial, what will
you say in your defense?
Ocalan: There is no terrorism on the individual level that is
powerful enough to kill 30,000 people. Yet, this is Turkey's
allegation. In Turkey and Kurdistan, the total amount is more
than that. This is the balance sheet of a war, which has been
instigated by Turkey unilaterally. Over time, the code of war has
been infringed. Turkey has demanded an investigation of the war
which is taking place in Kurdistan, yet the kind of
investigations which took place in Kosovo or Bosnia are not
taking place in Kurdistan. There is a double standard being
practiced by the United States and Europe. It is very obvious who
is really massacring people: consider the obliteration of nearly
4000 Kurdish villages from the face of the map, and nearly 3,000
unsolved murder cases, which the official Susurluk Commission
Report describes.
The Kurdish language has been barred. It has been expunged
not just culturally but also physically. All academia agree on
this fact. The annihilation of the Kurdish language is based
solely on chauvinistic politics. Kurds are simply not recognized
as an identity. This is an infringement of human rights in its
crudest form. This is against all democratic principles. There
can be no more serious crime then denying the existence or
identity of a nation.
We are facing a genocide which has spread over time and is
being carried out through many different techniques. We want this
exposed. There are two sides to every war. If we are one side,
then we demand that those who have committed this crime on the
other side be found. These are our expectations from the United
States and the United Nations, and this is what is just and
right. Why would it not be possible for the United States to form
an International Commission of Law for Kurdistan instead of
insisting on my one-sided prosecution? This would be more
suitable for the historical legal traditions of the United
States, and that is what our expectations are.
In 1990, Germany issued a warrant for my arrest. Yet, after
my arrival in Europe, Germany did not enforce this warrant, and
has not requested my return. This is because they are aware of
how much this would complicate the problems at hand. Not to
mention that their case against me is not strong enough to ask
for my prosecution. However, they chose a path which kept the
problem from growing worse and avoided creating a bigger obstacle
on the road to a political solution. We look at this favorably.
MEI: Regarding statements you have made about renouncing
terrorism, are there any conditions on such a pledge?
Ocalan: We have never accepted the accusation that we are
terrorists. As an organization, we have never resorted to
military warfare for arbitrary reasons or personal pleasures.
Yes, we are fighting with weapons, but this is due to the state
terror inflicted upon our people. Our identity, political
culture, and linguistic heritage have been brutally suppressed by
state terrorism. This terrorism consists of physical as well as
ideological and cultural facets. In light of these facts, we did
not have any alternative other than military warfare. This must
be clearly understood.
If today, the Republic of Turkey said, "We accept the
identity of the Kurds, and we will approach their national,
democratic rights as well as their cultural requests with total
understanding," we would immediately give up our armed struggle.
But in the face of genocide? Which nation, which population, can
forfeit its spoken language, or deny its own cultural existence?
This is globally unheard of, yet Turkey is forcefully practicing
this. There can be no terrorism bigger than that. This must also
be clearly understood.
Persistently labeling us as terrorists is not a reasonable
argument. I believe this must be rectified before anything else.
Armed struggle is the only way for us to exist as a nation. Once
again, I repeat, if even limited peace efforts and political
advancements were made by Turkey, we would silence our weapons. I
would like to see the United States as vanguard, the United
Nations as mediator, and the European Union as watchdog in this
process. I can assure you of my sincerity.
Because violence is applied persistently by the opposite
side, it would be nonsense for us to propose terms and conditions
to give up our armed struggle. NATO, as well as the political and
economical support of the United States, is behind the violence
the Turkish government applies. Resistance to such aggression is
our sacred right to survive. Humanity must look at this matter
objectively and handle it the proper way.
MEI: But are there types of PKK activities you would continue to
encourage, and activities you would no longer permit?
Ocalan: I believe that the question you are really asking is
whether some of the PKK's actions warrant ethical disapproval. I
have always had great respect for the line that the PKK draws,
and as one of its founders, I will always stand by that line.
The PKK demands Kurdish national democracy and freedom.
These demands are fundamental rights of humanity, which cannot be
relinquished by any nation nor by me.
But, in our struggle, there have been some lax approaches on
the individual level, and this has elicited my criticism. There
were also many crimes committed by a number of people who are
employed by the Turkish government today as provocateurs. In
reality, the no one can deny the fact that I disapprove of
unacceptable acts, and also fight against them vehemently. Anyone
who studies the PKK will see the type of struggle I carry on. I
wish there were a way to avoid unnecessary bloodshed, yet there
is an individualist and arbitrary side to the Kurdish character,
which sometimes determines otherwise. For instance, we all know
that thousands of Kurdish people died needlessly during the
struggle led by Barzani and Talabani in the South (Northern
Iraq). Even though we have not reached that extent problems still
exist. Recently, we have begun taking precautionary measures, by
punishing those who are responsible for taking unacceptable
actions against civilians. This has to be investigated because
these actions have not only tainted the war, but have also
created an uncontrollable situation. It is for this reason that
we have taken all necessary steps to avoid a repetition of such
unacceptable actions, and to ensure that if the war need
continue, it continues in accordance with a proper code of law
and justice. We have successfully put these precautionary steps
into practice. But the Turkish government's dirty war tactics are
immensely frightening. The Turkish government neither respects
nor follows any code of war whatsoever. Perhaps it would be
accurate to say that the Turkish government is conducting the
most tainted war of all times in Kurdistan, and I must draw your
attention to this matter.
If there were an international court of justice, nothing
could stop me from proving these facts. But, if the Kurdish
problem were placed on the international agenda, without a doubt,
we would seek redress through diplomacy. I place high priority on
a dialogue with the Turkish government which could bring a
political solution to the situation inside and outside of Turkey.
I do insist on a solution which would reconstruct the Turkish
government along democratic principles within the existing
borders of Turkey. The Kurdish issue must be resolved by means of
pluralistic democracy. In order to achieve this objective, I am
aiming to receive active support from the democratic forces of
Turkey, as well as international democratic forces.
This is my current strategy. I sincerely hope that the steps
I've taken will find success. If not, without a doubt, our
struggle will continue. This would mean a Kurdish war extending
to the year 2000 and beyond. No one will gain anything from it
and the peace process in the Middle East will be delayed.
MEI: Do you anticipate negotiations with Turkey in the near
future?
Ocalan: Realistically speaking, Turkey's only alternative is to
resolve the issue through political dialogue. There has never
been any political dialogue in order to bring about a solution to
the Kurdish issue, and this is the sole reason why the problems
Turkey faces today are weightier than ever.
As I have repeatedly pointed out in answering your previous
questions, I am trying hard to emphasize a political solution to
this matter. In order to keep the problem from reaching a
dead-end, I am trying to keep our demands down to a modest level.
For instance, I propose a unilateral cease-fire, and the start of
dialogue with Turkey concerning military demands within existing
borders. Yet, relying on their military power, Turkey is still
refusing to recognize the Kurdish identity. This is a great
injustice, and it fuels the conflict. Such a strategy will only
create special interest groups, which subsist on the perpetuation
of war. This will not benefit anyone. I have stepped up my final
efforts to draw the attention of international public opinion,
and I hope international forces will stop Turkey's attempt at an
unfair and one-sided military solution to this problem. If NATO,
the European Union, and the United States cease supporting Turkey
as they have in the past, we could work out a political solution
with Turkey. That would be the most appropriate course of action.
MEI: Could you support a negotiating process where the PKK might
not be officially represented?
Ocalan: The important factor here is the PKK's objectives.
Assuming the Kurdish problem were laid out on the table in a
serious manner, it is possible to start the discussions and bring
about certain developments towards a solution with the
contributions of fellow Kurds, without actually involving the PKK
officially. As I have repeatedly pointed out, if the Turkish
government has a policy against talking to the PKK and its
leadership, that is not a very hard problem to overcome. It is
possible to form a committee which all the organizations would
accept. The political parties of Northern Kurdistan have already
requested to form a united committee of representatives, and the
PKK is playing an active role in the process.
If no one else, at least Turkey should be able to sit at the
table with this committee. In the meanwhile, we would show them
all the support we could in the background. But I do believe, in
the end, that our active participation will also be necessary.
MEI: What specific role do you see the U.S. and other
international parties playing in future dealings between Turkey
and the Kurdish movement?
Ocalan: Not just in the future, but even at present, I believe
that the United States, the United Nations, and other
international agencies can play significant roles in fostering
relations between the Kurds and the Turks. In reality, that is
the reason I came to Europe, to suggest the type of participation
these parties can engage in. In fact, if there were assurances of
diplomatic immunity, I would like to come to the United States. I
am certain that the explanation of the Kurdish issue that I would
offer in the United States would play a great role in reaching a
solution.
I do not believe that the United States can deny the Kurds
their identity or their rights. There are important principles in
the American democratic tradition, which could help resolve the
Kurdish problem. In my opinion, the United States has been
distancing itself from the PKK and the Kurdish issue due to the
perception of its strategic interests in the Middle East. We
could shed light on these issues. I could show the United States
how their strategic interests are not in conflict with the
national war of the Kurds in Northern Kurdistan. Or, at least, I
could prove how bringing about a political solution to the
problems the Northern Kurds face would be in the best interests
of the United States. There is a vital role to be played here,
and I could show the U.S. how to play this role
There cannot be stability in the Middle East without peace
in Kurdistan, and needless to say, a Middle East without peace
would be a perplexing situation not only for the United States
but for the rest of the world. Therefore, I believe the global
powers should visualize their interests clearly, and should
contribute to the solution with objectivity. I believe that
taking immediate action today towards finding a solution to the
problem, even by taking small practical steps, would be better
than waiting for the future.
[Editor's note: For subscription details to Middle East Insight,
e-mail Tanya at tanya@mideastinsight.org ]
(Source: Toronto Kurdish Information Centre)
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