STUBBS, WILLIAM WENTWORTH


Name: William Wentworth Wilbur "Bill" Stubbs SSGT William W. Stubbs
Rank/Branch: Staff Sergeant/US Army 
Unit: Special Operations Augmentation, 
Command & Control Central, 
5th Special Forces Group, 
1st Special Forces 
Kontum, South Vietnam 









Date of Birth: 06 August 1949 (Oak Harbor, WA)
Home of Record: Newport, WA
Date of Loss: 20 October 1969 
Country of Loss: Laos
Loss Coordinates: 180524N 1050000E (YB705987)
Click coordinates to view maps

Status in 1973: Missing in Action 
Category: 2
Aircraft/Vehicle/Ground: Ground
Other Personnel In Incident: Richard Gross and Robert Mohs (rescued) 

REMARKS:

SYNOPSIS:

MACV-SOG, or Military Assistance Command Vietnam Studies and Observation Group,was a joint service high command unconventional warfare task force engaged in highly classified operations throughout Southeast Asia. The 5th Special Forces channeled personnel into MACV-SOG (though it was not a Special Forces Group) through Special Operations Augmentations (SOA), which provided their "cover" while under secret orders to MACV-SOG. These teams performed deep penetration missions of strategic reconnaissance and interdiction that were called, depending on the location and time frame, "Shining Brass," "Daniel Boone," "Salem House," "Steel Tiger" or "Prairie Fire.".

When North Vietnam began to increase its military strength in South Vietnam, NVA and Viet Cong troops again intruded on neutral Laos for sanctuary, as the Viet Minh had done during the war with the French some years before. This border road, which was frequently no more than a path cut through the jungle covered mountains, was used by communist forces to transport weapons, supplies and troops from North Vietnam into South Vietnam. US forces used all assets available to them to stop this flow of men and supplies from moving south into the war zone.

On 17 October 1969, SFC Richard "Dick" Gross, team leader; then Sgt. William W. W. "Bill" Stubbs, assistant team leader; SSgt. Robert "Bob" Mohs, radio operator; and six Montagnards comprised RT California, a special operations reconnaissance team conducting an eight-day intelligence gathering mission in Laos. The team moved from their Forward Operating Base at Kontum (FOB #2) onboard a US Army C-7 Caribou to the Special Forces A-Team border camp at Dak Pek where they spent the night.

On the morning of 18 October 1969, a South Vietnamese Air Force (VNAF) Ch-34 helicopter from the VNAF's 219th Squadron inserted RT California into their area of operation. Members of a special operations air support unit who flew the VNAF helicopter, were known by their call sign "Kingbee." The region of eastern Laos in which the team was operating was identified as "target area S-7." Further, the entire region was laced with multiple primary and secondary east/west arteries of the Ho Chi Minh Trail that crossed into South Vietnam south of the major US base of Kham Duc.

At approximately 1130 hours on 20 October 1969, RT California stopped for a short break in a thickly wooded area on a steep mountainside in the vicinity of the Ho Chi Minh Trail to rest. The break coincided with the time of a regularly scheduled radio check with the onsite Forward Air Controller (FAC), call sign "Covey." Sgt. Stubbs was located up-slope in the team's defensive position during the rest break. Weather conditions at the time included a clear sky and a comfortable, mild temperature under the jungle canopy.

As RT California remained stationary, an enemy force estimated to be of platoon size moved into position above their location and attacked it. In the initial burst of gunfire, Bill Stubbs was struck several times in the head at close range by enemy automatic weapons fire. At the same time five Montagnards were wounded to varying degrees of severity by enemy gunfire. Dick Gross was also injured when he fell backwards twisting his knee and causing him to hobble through the rest of this action. As the fierce firefight continued, enemy troops threw hand grenades, three of which landed in Sgt. Stubbs' general location.

Because of the intense and accurate enemy gunfire, other team members were unable to move up the steep slope to reach Bill Stubbs. Five minutes later the surviving members of RT California were forced to withdraw under fire downhill and away from the point of contact leaving Sgt. Stubbs and much of their equipment behind.

The ambush location was in rugged jungle covered mountains approximately 19 miles west-southwest of Kham Duc, South Vietnam; and 4 miles southwest of the Lao/South Vietnamese border, Attopeu Province, Laos.

Over the next hour, the team fought a running gun battle with pursuing NVA forces. On several occasions as the battered team maneuvered through the harsh terrain, the survivors were forced to lay down suppressive automatic weapons fire in order to break contact with NVA who were closing on their position. After the first hour, the team was able to successfully put enough distance between themselves and the pursuing NVA to effectively break contact with them. The survivors continued to evade for a total of 5 hours with those most able carrying the more severely wounded team members.>

Finally RT California reached a clearing on high ground that was suitable for a helicopter to land. Using their emergency radios, the team made radio contact on guard frequency, the emergency channel, with a fast moving jet aircraft that was in the area. The pilot notified the onsite FAC of his contact with the ground team, and in turn the FAC arranged for an emergency extraction. Two USAF A-1E Skyraiders provided air support to suppress nearby enemy troop movements while a US Army Huey helicopter swooped in to extract the team from the designated pick-up zone (PZ).

After rescue, the surviving team members learned the reason the Covey pilot was not overhead as briefed during the time the team was to make it's mid-day contact was because he was busy inserting other recon teams into their operational area.

The following day SFC Gross and a Special Forces search and rescue (SAR) team from the launch site at Dak To was inserted into the point of contact to search for Sgt. Stubbs. However, no trace of Bill Stubbs or any of the equipment left behind was found because the NVA had swept the area after the firefight and recovered everything of value. Likewise, SAR personnel found no sign of a freshly dug grave anywhere in or around the immediate area of the ambush. At the time the formal search was terminated, Bill Stubbs was reported as Missing In Action.

On January 1970, an Army Board of Inquiry reviewed the known facts and circumstances surrounding the loss of Sgt. Stubbs. They determined there was a chance Bill Stubbs survived and was captured, and officially declared him Missing in Action as a result of the action on 20 October 1969.

For every insertion like this one that was detected and stopped, dozens of others safely slipped past NVA lines to strike a wide range of targets and collect vital information. The number of MACV-SOG missions conducted with Special Forces reconnaissance teams into Laos and Cambodia was 452 in 1969. It was the most sustained American campaign of raiding, sabotage and intelligence gathering waged on foreign soil in US military history. MACV-SOG's teams earned a global reputation as one of the most combat effective deep-penetration forces ever raised.

William Stubbs is one of nearly 600 Americans who disappeared in Laos. Many are known to have been alive on the ground after their loss incidents. Although the Pathet Lao publicly stated on several occasions that they held "tens of tens" of American prisoners, not one American held in Laos has ever been released.

While Bill Stubbs was definitely wounded and possibly killed in this ambush, there is no way to know for sure. If he is dead, he has the right to have his remains returned to his family, friends and country. If, on the other hand, he survived his wounds he most certainly would have been captured by the enemy and his fate, like that of other Americans who remain unaccounted for in Southeast Asia, could be quite different. Either way there is no question the communists have the answers and could return him or his remains any time they had the desire to do so.

Since the end of the Vietnam War, over 21,000 reports of American prisoners, missing and otherwise unaccounted for have been received by our government. Many of these reports document LIVE American Prisoners of War remaining captive throughout Southeast Asia TODAY.

Military personnel in Vietnam and Laos were called upon to undertake many dangerous missions, and they were prepared to be wounded, killed, or captured. It probably never occurred to them that they could be abandoned by the country they proudly served

Thanks goes to Robert Noe at MACV-SOG website  He has provided the above bio on Billy Stubbs

Thanks goes to Jeniifer Martinez for all of her help, she has a great POW-MIA site. You can go to her site here:   http://www.jenmartinez.com


I have had the good fortune of emailing with a good friend of "Billy's" who knew and served with him in Vietnam. William Welker who lives in CA. now,
wrote to me and related some of his memories.

"Bill and I went through Special Forces Training Group at Fort Bragg. I 
don't know much about his family. He was assigned to Command and
Control Detachment Central, part of the Special Operations Group (SOG). He
was over the fence as we say with a recon team consisting of three
Americans and three indigenous personnel (Montangards). I spoke to his team
leader later a very experienced Special Forces Staff Sergeant whose name
I have forgotten. He told me what happened.

They were getting up from a rest break when Bill took a burst of
several rounds from an AK 47. He went down immediately and was in the team
leader's opinion killed instantly. The team had to exfiltrate to a
recovery point as the were heavily outnumbered. His body was never recovered.
I believe that Bill died that day as the NVA had no way of keeping
someone alive that was so gravely wounded.

He was a great guy, we had done a stand down together in Nha Trang a
former French resort city and the home base of all Special Forces. I know
he was about to get engaged as he was going to buy and engagement ring
at the greatly reduced prices in the PX.

He was very proud of the fact that he was a Special Forces trooper and
even more so because he was in the elite SOG recon team. I think of him
often and take some small relief that he died doing something he wanted
to do unlike many of our peers in that period who died of overdoses. I
am glad that you have memories of Bill, I too have his bracelet.
Thanks for caring.

Brad Welker

PS I just retired after 31 years with the Los Angeles County Sheriff's
Department.

I recommend you find the series of books written about SOG, I think the
author's name is Bill Plaster. Good Luck"

Wlliam Welker later replied back to me with this note:

I am glad that I could give you information about Bill. Bill, myself
and hundreds of thousands other other youn men had grown up listening to
the stories of their fathers and other men about Wordl War II. Unlike
many of our peers we chose too earn the respect of those veterans by
doing our part.

Bill and all of us in Special Forces (at least the young guys) enlisted
for Airborne, took the Special Forces Qualification Test (written,
swimming, and physical training). Then went to the Special Forces
Qualification Course. Upon completion we both volunteered for Viet Nam, as by
1969 there were enough SF trainees to more than fill the slots available.

We were both trained to work as guerilla leaders with indigenous
forces. However, the war was changing and Special Forces "A" camps were being
transferred to Vietnamese control. When we got to Cam Ranh Bay we were
fortunate to continue on to the 5th Special Forces and ultimately
became members of units whose primary mission was long range recon. I was
fortunate enough to go through the Recondo School. Bill went right to
CCC.

Even now it is hard for me to accurately describe what it was like to
be many miles from the nearest American unit with 5 or 6 other men.
Unlike Ranger patrols, SOG units were often out of artillery range and had
only available air support to call upon. It was a terrifying experience
from the moment you boarded a helicopter for insertion until you were
exfiltrated. The expectation of sudden violent fire fights was always
there.

Bill was a very good guy, he was more afraid of letting his team
members down than he was of the enemy.

I am very glad that you have taken an interest in him. You would have
found him a very likeable person. I will never forget him, and think of
him often.
Thanks

William (Brad) Welker



COPLEY, WILLIAM MICHAEL

Name: William Michael Copley 
Rank/Branch: Staff Sergeant/US Army 
Unit: Command and Control North Military Assistance
 Command-Vietnam
 Studies and Observation Group
 5th Special Forces Group, 1st Special Forces 


William M. Copley






Date of Birth: 22 May 1949 (Columbus, OH)
Home of Record: Northridge, CA
Date of Loss: 16 November 1968 
Country of Loss: Laos 
Loss Coordinates: 144000N 1071754E (YB475226) 
Click coordinates to view maps

Status in 1973: Missing in Action 
Category: 2
Aircraft/Vehicle/Ground: Ground
Other Personnel In Incident: (none missing) 

REMARKS:

SYNOPSIS:  Military Assistance Command Vietnam Studies and Observation Group (MACV-SOG), was a joint service high command unconventional warfare task force engaged in highly classified operations throughout Southeast Asia. The 5th Special Forces channeled personnel into MACV-SOG (though it was not a Special Forces group) through Special Operations Augmentation (SOA), which provided their "cover" while under secret orders to MACV-SOG. These teams performed deep penetration missions of strategic reconnaissance and interdiction which were called, depending on the time frame, "Shining Brass" or "Prairie Fire" missions.,

On 13 November 1968, SSgt. Roger T. Loe, team leader; then SP4 William M. Copley, assistant team leader; and an unspecified number of indigenous team members, comprised Recon Team (RT) Vermont, a reconnaissance patrol that was operating deep in enemy held territory. This area of extreme southeastern Laos was considered a major artery of the infamous Ho Chi Minh Trail feeding communist troops and material into the hotly contested tri-border area where Laos, South Vietnam and Cambodia meet.

When North Vietnam began to increase its military strength in South Vietnam, NVA and Viet Cong troops again intruded on neutral Laos for sanctuary, as the Viet Minh had done during the war with the French some years before. This border road was frequently no more than a path cut through the jungle covered mountains. US forces used all assets available to them to stop this flow of men and supplies from moving south into the war zone.

Before RT Vermont could establish its overnight position in rolling, forested mountains west of Ben Het, approximately 29 miles west of Dak To, South Vietnam; 34 miles southeast of the city of Attopeu, 7 miles west of Ban Pakha and 3 miles north of the Lao/Cambodian border, Attopeu Province, Laos, it was ambushed by an enemy force of unknown size. SP4 Copley was seriously wounded in the initial burst of enemy automatic weapons fire. As he was hit, he cried out to SSgt. Loe, "Help me, I'm hit!" Roger Loe immediately moved to William Copley's position to check his condition. He noted that the bullet entered his upper left shoulder and exited through the middle of his back.

After applying a pressure bandage, SSgt. Loe carried William Copley on his back for a short distance toward the patrol's hastily established perimeter. While struggling to carry him over uneven ground, SSgt. Loe tripped and fell. He immediately began administering first aid to William Copley and continued it until he believed his assistant team leader's face showed signs of death. Under intense pressure from hostile forces, the team leader was forced to withdraw to protective cover leaving William Copley behind. The remainder of the team, including the team leader, was able to escape the ambush site and evade to safety.

Later on 13 November, another recon team, RT New Hampshire, was inserted into the area of the ambush to conduct a search and rescue (SAR) in an effort to rescue/recover SP4 Copley. 1st Lt. James D. Birchim, team leader; SP4 Frank L Belletire, assistant team leader and 10 indigenous personnel; comprised RT New Hampshire. Over the next two days an extensive search in and around the ambush site was conducted. During the search no sign of the missing assistant team leader or his remains were found.

On 15 November, RT New Hampshire was also ambushed by communist troops in the same general area as RT Vermont. At dusk, and after engaging in a running gun battle with NVA forces, emergency extraction helicopters recovered 8 of the 12-man SAR team, including 1st Lt. Birchim and SP4 Belletire who were extracted by use of McGuire rigs. Of the four indigenous team members not recovered, three were listed Missing in Action and the fourth was listed Killed in Action/Body Not Recovered. On return flight to base, the recon team members remained in the McGuire rigs dangling below the helicopter. During the flight, Jim Birchim fell from the McGuire rig that he and Frank Belletire shared and was also listed Missing in Action.

In spite of the initial firefight in which SP4 Copley was wounded commencing on 13 November, his date of loss was officially established as being at the time formal search efforts were terminated on 16 November 1968. At that time William Copley was officially declared Missing in Action.

For every insertion like this one that was detected and stopped, dozens of others safely slipped past NVA lines to strike a wide range of targets and collect vital information. The number of MACV-SOG missions conducted with Special Forces reconnaissance teams into Laos and Cambodia was 452 in 1969. It was the most sustained American campaign of raiding, sabotage and intelligence-gathering waged on foreign soil in US military history. MACV-SOG's teams earned a global reputation as one of the most combat effective deep-penetration forces ever raised.

William Copley is among nearly 600 Americans who disappeared in Laos. Many of these men were known to be alive on the ground. The Laotians admitted holding "tens of tens" of American Prisoners of War, but these men were never negotiated for either by direct negotiation between our countries or through the Paris Peace Accords which ended the War in Vietnam since Laos was not a party to that agreement.

There is some doubt as to whether or not SP4 Copley died of his wounds or could have survived them. If he died of those wounds, he has the right to have his remains returned to his family, friends and country. On the other hand, if he managed to survive, his fate, like that of other Americans who remain unaccounted for in Southeast Asia, could be quite different.

Since the end of the Vietnam War well over 21,000 reports of American prisoners, missing and otherwise unaccounted for have been received by our government. Many of these reports document LIVE American Prisoners of War remaining captive throughout Southeast Asia TODAY.

American servicemen in Vietnam were called upon to operate in many dangerous circumstances both on and off duty, and they were prepared to be wounded, killed or captured. It probably never occurred to them that they could be abandoned by the country they so proudly served.

Again Thanks go to Jennifer Martinez for pointing me in the right direction and to Craig Willbanks of  http://www.taskforceomegainc.org for the above bio.



In Memory of Specialist Fourth Class William Michael Copley

Killed In Action

16 November 1968

[Although SP4 Copley was killed on November 13, 1968 he was officially listed as "missing in action" on November 16th after the search for his remains was unsuccessful]

 

This memorial was written by Bill’s family, who continue to share a deep sense of emotional pride and love of Special Forces, SOG and the men of the Assault Helicopter Companies (AHC). To the families of our fallen comrades in arms and brothers, who share the deeper losses of this war, we, the soldiers of SOG and AHC, hope this in some small way helps to fill the emptiness imposed on those left behind. We extend to these families the knowledge we did our best and only as a last resort were we forced to abandon our friends and wish to share with these families who have produced some of America’s best, the knowledge we have not forgotten! Cpt Robert L. Noe, Ret.

If you knew Bill and would like to get in touch with his sister Cathy, you are inivited to do so by contacting Robert Noe at SOG1RLNOE@AOL.Com .  He will pass your message directly on to Cathy.

 

Specialist Fourth Class (SP/4) William Michael Copley, was known as "Mike" to his family and "Bill" to the rest of the world. Bill was only 19 years old when he gave up his life for his country. To some, that is too young to understand honor and dedication, but he did understand, and he loved freedom. Some would call that idealism, perhaps so, but he was willing to go to war to defend it. He had great honor, intelligence, humor, and pride. He knew what he was doing when he chose to join the group that was to him, "the best of the best," the Green Beret, and he knew the odds against ever coming home again.

Bill was born in Ohio, but spent his life in Southern California. In 1967, after graduating from Chatsworth High School in the San Fernando Valley, he enlisted. His training took him to Fort Ord, Ca., and Fort Benning, Ga., where he specialized in intelligence and communications. He finished in the top 5% of his class.

In Vietnam, he was with MACV-SOG, assigned to what is known as SLAM missions. They were one, or a combination of "Search-Locate-Annihilate-Monitor" missions operating deep behind enemy lines. Their missions entailed "unconventional methods" for the purpose to delay, frustrate, demoralize and eliminate the enemy and supplies before reaching South Vietnam as well as to force the enemy to commit large numbers of troops to defend against SOG operations, thus, preventing these soldiers from being used against American Forces. They gathered reports of troop movements, supplies, and communication systems on the enemy, forwarding them back to Saigon.

Bill was on a CCC recon mission out of Kontum having being inserted into an area 15 to 20 miles deep behind enemy lines in Laos. He was with SSG Robert Loe and six Montagnards. They were ambushed just before setting up for the night (RON). Bill was shot in the upper left shoulder, it exited his back. Loe carried Bill for some distance and delivered 1st aid. The enemy was in hot pursuit of the team, Loe disregarded his own safety and continued administrating 1st aid until "Bill’s face showed signs of death. The situation became extremely dangerous, and there being nothing more that could be done for Bill, Loe and the team were forced to abandon their comrade in arms, reluctantly, fighting their way backwards, away from their advancing opponents.

An extraction team was inserted late in the evening to extract survivors. The extraction team worked their way back to where the team was ambushed and where Bill had been left; however, no remains were found. The search was continued through the 15th of November with the extraction team coming into constant contact with the enemy during their search efforts and were finally forced to withdraw. Since Bill was still alive when last seen, he was listed as Missing in Action.

Because of the efficiency and bravery of SOG soldiers, the North Vietnamese placed a high price on the heads of any SOG members. In 1968, there was more than just the reward that made survival more difficult for the men. SOG Teams had made a crushing blow against the post Tet NAV movement in their "sanctuaries" in Cambodia and Laos. The damage inflicted by SOG was effective, to the point the enemy created "Special Counter-Recon Hunter Teams," which were trained by the Chinese in Martial Arts and covert operations to seek out SOG - they even used dogs for tracking. SOG members were considered as criminals of the highest order---Not Soldiers. No SOG member who was lost over the fence has ever been recovered, nor has any information ever been released by the North Vietnamese as to their fate, even to this date.

My family and I cannot express the extent of our gratitude to Robert Loe. He endangered his own life to help my brother and gave up only when hope was gone and the alternative would have been to forfeit his own life as well. We have nothing but the greatest respect and appreciation for SSG Loe. I can not imagine anything more difficult for any man than to have to make such a painful decision. The men of MACV-SOG, are without a doubt, some of the most courageous and heroic men ever to wear a uniform.

We have only just learned this information about Bill and SOG. The bravery of these men made such a difference in bringing the war to an early end. We, like most Americans, had no concept of the terrifying magnitude of their focus. We have also recently learned that it if weren’t for the incredible men of the 57th, 361st, 170th Assault Helicopter Companies as well as the 219th Vietnamese CH-34 pilots, many more SOG men of CCC would have been lost. Any memorial to SOG must also include a very special salute to those men that regularly risked and gave their lives to bring the recon teams home.

We miss "Mike" very much. When we think of him, we are filled with overwhelming pride. Like so many enthusiastic, passionate young men, he chose to go to war

Thanks goes to Robert Noe for the above bio, you can view other MIA bios at this address  http://www/macvsog.org
to make this world a better place. He chose to be one of the "BEST" because he had the unselfish heart of a hero. But then, to us, he has always been a hero!



Though I was too young at the time to go to war, I do remember the evening news reports of the latest KIAs and the imfamous
"body counts" for that day or the week. What a strange thing for a young person to see. It left a deep and long lasting
impression upon me.I have for many years been fascinated by the Vietnam War and read voraciously on the subject. I was
in the Army myself in later years and I still feel a little strange when a helicopter flies over. I can only imagine the
relief that the soldiers felt when they heard that familiar "whump, whump" sound.

Soldiers like William Stubbs and William Copley answered a call that most parents dread, yet they went because their
country asked them to. I feel sorrow and a sense of helplessness for my country because it and the government has chosen
to forget those who died serving it. From the information I have read and managed to gather, they may never come home.
I am sad for their family, for they have no "closure".

The only way they will be remembered is by pages like these. I chose to remember them because it is the good and
right thing to do. I wear a bracelets with their names on it and I am reminded of them daily. That is how it should be!

I am not normally a sentimental person or religious either, however this reaches deep into my heart. I have often thought
about that one question that I would like to ask GOD if I was able to, I think that I would ask GOD "Where are Bill Stubbs
and Bill Copley? and can you bring them ALL home?.

If you took the time to read this far then perhaps there is part of you that wants to remember. Give in to it. They will
not be forgotten!!

Ron Rosenwald

6/7/02