54. ADAM, HOWARD, AND THE FLOOD MYTH

May 13, 1998

 

In a message dated May 13, 1998 HOWARD8984 writes:

Quoting Osareya: "The question is, how could Adam and Eve know, prior to eating from the tree, that it was a sin to disobey god? They were told that they would die, by god, if they ate from the tree, but how could they have any knowledge of what death was before the fall?"

Howard8984 responds: "This is a fallacy of argument from silence. How do you know that God did not reveal the meaning of die to them previously?"

Why would anyone think ‘god’ did reveal the ‘meaning of die [sic] to them previously’? If it is not mentioned, should we presume that Adam and Eve were taught by ‘god’ about the concept ‘death’? If you want to argue that ‘god’ did so teach Adam and Eve, what scriptural basis do you have to account for this ASSumption? If it is not mentioned that god defined ‘death’ in his threat to Adam and Eve, HOW can one state with any certainty at all that ‘god’ DID ‘define’ it??? Who are you, Howard8984, to put words into the Bible where no words were before???

Howard8984 continues: "The Bible does not mention what diet Jesus ate on a day to day basis,"

No, it doesn’t, now that you mention it. Does that mean I can fill in the blanks as you presume to do in the above example? Or am I not allowed because I don’t claim to be ‘guided by the Spirit’ in such matters??

Howard8984 contends: "The Bible never states that Adam and Eve went to the bathroom, but that doesn’t prove they didn’t."

Me thinks you may be context-dropping here again, Howard. God’s threat of death has nothing to do with going ‘to the bathroom’ - it has everything to do with the nature of man, which at that time did not include death, according to the myths in Genesis, otherwise God would never have threatened them with it in the first place. (By the way, I doubt that Adam or Eve ever built bathrooms back in the ‘Garden of Eden’ - I imagine they just did their ‘thing’ wherever they were standing. Just a thought, buddy.)

Howard8984 states: "They were created in the moral image of God (Gen. 1:26, 27 parallel to Gen. 5:1; 9:6; I Cor. 11:7; James 3:9). The special dignity of being human is that as men and women we may reflect and reproduce at our own creaturely level the holy ways of God. Human beings were made for this purpose. Adam and Eve may have had intuitive knowledge of the word ‘die.’ Obviously, if God is communicating with them, words have been learned by them previously."

Are you going to make an alter call now, Howard? You might want to first define what you mean by ‘intuitive knowledge’. On that note, what does the Bible say about ‘intuitive knowledge’? My Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible makes no entry for the words ‘intuitive’ or ‘intuition’. In fact, it seems the authors of the Bible had far more warfare on their minds than matters of knowledge, for my Concordance jumps from ‘INTRUDING’ to ‘INVADE’, giving any form of the word ‘INTUITIVE’ amiss. Go figure. Could it be that Adam and Eve may NOT have had ‘intuitive knowledge of the word ‘die’’? Yes? No? Maybe? Or a simple (and honest), "I don’t know"????

Howard8984 asks: "Why would God tell them something they didn’t understand?"

Good question! Why would ‘god’ (supposing there were such a thing) tell man anything he ‘didn’t understand’? The Bible is full of things that are misunderstood all the time, and the numerous divisions among Christian sects as a consequence of the vague approximations in the Bible are testimony to this fact. Many sects in fact do not agree even on the method of baptism - whether it be ‘sprinkling’ or ‘dunking’ or ‘wading’ or what have you. The Bible is not a source to go to as a guide for intellectual comprehension. (In other words, it does not teach man how to think, only to obey and to accept its claims on faith. This requires no genuine and profound ability to understand at all.)

Howard8984 points out: "They knew words and meanings, for they communicated with Satan via means of the serpent."

Interesting. Any dialogs recorded in Genesis between Adam and his ‘creator’? Or just between Eve and the ‘serpent’? And since when do serpents ‘communicate’ with humans? I used to study ophiology (the study of snakes), and never once did I ever come across a specimen that could speak to me. Then again, I don’t eat of every herb of the garden, hint, hint. This tale of the serpent in the ‘Garden’ is nothing short of pure fabulistic fantasy, and I find the capacity to accept it as truth - especially today with knowledge and reason so readily available to individuals -TERRIFYING. You should be ashamed of yourself!!

Howard8984 observes: "The human capacity for communication and relationship with both God and each other appears as a further facet of the image."

Does the Bible say this? Where does the Bible say this about Adam and Eve? Where does the Bible elaborate on this ‘image’ theme and state what you are stating here above? Or are you just inserting more words into the Bible that were not there before? You do this with us, why wouldn’t you do it also with the Bible? Just curious.

Howard8984 equivocates: "They knew the definition of tree and other words, so why wouldn’t they know the definition of ‘die’?"

Where does the Bible mention that ‘they knew the definition of tree’ and what is the definition of ‘tree’ that the Bible gives? In fact, on that note, does the Bible give any indication as to how man is supposed to arrive at definitions of terms if they are not ‘divinely revealed’ to us by the Holy Godhead Himself? Seems to me that the Bible is rather silent on the study of concept-formation, to be sure. You are free to correct me if you lie, I mean like (this out to be entertaining!!).

Howard8984 argues: "When Eve was communicating with Satan via the snake, Satan told her that she would not die if she ate it. This enticed her to go ahead and eat it."

I see. And since you were not there to witness this exchange yourself, you simply believe it "because the Bible tells you so"?

Howard8984 concludes: "She must have known that death was not a good option,"

SO was death an ‘option’ for her at this point, or....?? And does the Bible mention what Eve was thinking at this point? Or are you taking license again to insert even more words into the Bible that are not there?? That’s a third time, Howard. But I won’t restrict you, have at it, please continue. Interpret for us.

Howard8984 continues: "…for her previous knowledge of the penalty of death kept her from eating up until that point."

Her ‘previous knowledge’? Can you verify this allegation? Please explain this one, I for one would like to know your take on this.

Howard8984 speculates: "Her error was placing faith in the devil’s words."

Does the Bible record Eve saying that she placed ‘faith in the devils’ words’? Or is this another famous Howardian presumption?

Howard8984 ‘reasons’: "He told her she would not die (Gen. 3:4), so she must have known the term die was something bad."

Can you define what you mean by the word ‘bad’? How does the Bible define the word ‘bad’? Is this the same thing as ‘evil’? Is this just another one of your subjective inferences?

Howard8984 rationalizes: "Adam also must have known that ‘die’ was a bad thing, for when God questioned him concerning their actions of eating it, Adam dodged the question and blame-shifted his actions. (Gen. 3:12)."

Perhaps Adam learned this behavior of evasion from someone he admired? Like ‘god’?? No, the Bible doesn’t say, but to argue that he didn’t do so would invoke the ‘fallacy of the argument from silence’, right? Please explain this fallacy for us, and tell me why it applies to Osareya’s statements, and not to yours.

The rest of Howard’s post was just as pointless as the parts I included here, but I wanted to show how ‘holey’ his style of ‘argumentation’ is. Most of it is based on pure subjective conjecture.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * $

However, here is a part of the Bible that I ahve apparently failed to ‘understand’ - whatever that means in biblical terms, and would welcome Howard’s input. I copied the following from a post I submitted to the group back in early March - long before Howard and several others joined the group. Since they did not have a chance to submit their opinions on this matter, I here provide them the opportunity. When I submitted this question back in March, I did not receive any response from the Christians of the forum, none that I remember indeed. In fact, I imagine the Christians of the forum who considered my following question did not know how to answer it. I’m sure it will give Howard plenty more opportunity to ‘interpret’ the Bible, a talent he’s developed to the point equal to any palm reader in town.

Here it goes:

Begin quote:

Subj: Two Questions About The Flood (see Session 3)

Date: March 2, 1998

DavidTietz writes (from a post that same date):

"Final note...

"I think that the Noah’s Arc [sic] story is an expression of Israelite CONJECTURES about god, such as:

DAVID"

To which Tindrbox (me) responds:

Not so fast.

Before we put the Flood myth in Genesis to rest as what it really is, a myth, I would like to ask those who accept the Genesis tale of Noah, his ark, and the aqueous deluge as genuine knowledge a couple questions that I myself find quite uncomfortable to answer, from the Christian’s perspective anyhow. That question proceeds thus:

 

In Genesis 7:2, ‘God’ allegedly commands to Noah:

"Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of the beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female."

My question is this: How was Noah supposed to know which ‘beasts’ were ‘clean’ and which ‘beasts’ were ‘not clean’, when these notions are not laid down until the "Law" was revealed to Moses?

The particular laws and ordinances that the ‘almighty’ revealed to Moses about supposedly ‘clean’ and ‘unclean’ beasts was not an issue until long after Noah and his little barge of beasts were a done deal. If you look in Leviticus chapter 11, you will see an account of the Law as ‘revealed’ to Moses regarding ‘clean and unclean beasts’. Did this happen before or after Noah and the Flood?? Well, for that matter, who preceded whom? Did Moses live before Noah, and his accounts are just told after those of Noah? Or, as the order of the books in the Pentateuch suggests, did Noah’s lifetime predate that of Moses?

It seems that the notion of ‘clean and unclean beasts’ certainly came about long after Noah and his days preceding the Flood. In fact, according to my Concordance (Strong’s Exhaustive), the very first use of the word clean (in any sense) appears in Gen. 7:2, which I quote above. Therefore, I just wonder how Noah was supposed to understand this directive from God. There was no such thing as the ‘Mosaic Laws’ at the time Noah and his ark set sail. And to boot, there is no mention of God giving Noah foreknowledge of these ‘Mosaic Laws’ at the time of his little sailing excursion. In fact, the issue of ‘clean and unclean animals’ seems to be nothing more than an oversight of the Jewish authors of this version of the flood myth. (There are, according to Lloyd M. Graham, numerous versions of the flood myth, all of which either predate the Genesis version or appear completely independently from the version given in Genesis. See Graham’s Deceptions and Myths of the Bible, chapter VI, "Noah and the Flood" pg. 85 ff.)

Is this one of those pesky discrepancies that everyone’s always talking about? Or is this merely an oversight of the editors of the biblical tales who forgot that Noah predated Moses and his legal ramblings? It certainly seems inconsistent with the CONTEXT as laid down by the various books that open the Bible, or perhaps I’m taking everything out of context here. Hmmm, I wonder.

Have at it, folx!! I would certainly like to know how the Christian is supposed to defend this one. (I think I already know: "God knew in advance that ‘clean’ beasts would have to be more plentiful after the flood...." Spin that yarn, buddy!!)

May you each get what you deserve,

Tindrbox$

 

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© Copyright 1999 by Anton Thorn. All rights reserved.

  

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